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Author Topic:   Death before the 'Fall'?
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 1 of 230 (274088)
12-30-2005 4:52 AM


I think this is something that needs to be cleared up.
Many posters here claim that before the Fall there was no death on Earth. I have studied the Bible quite a bit, and I really do not believe that the Bible suggests this at all. If anything, the Bible suggests that there was death before the Fall since God threatened Adam with death then surely Adam would have to know what death was!
I'd like to see some biblical texts that support the idea of no death before the Fall, or is it just another gimmick?
Bible study please admins.
Brian.

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 Message 11 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 12-31-2005 12:59 PM Brian has replied
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 Message 146 by Garrett, posted 02-13-2006 10:49 AM Brian has replied

  
AdminNWR
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 230 (274109)
12-30-2005 7:55 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 3 of 230 (274307)
12-31-2005 12:03 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Brian
12-30-2005 4:52 AM


diablo advocati
If anything, the Bible suggests that there was death before the Fall since God threatened Adam with death then surely Adam would have to know what death was!
evidently not since he didn't take god too seriously.
i think the best reading is that man was created mortal, but provided a means to immortality: the tree of life. in a sense, man did lose his immortality, but it was not a change in state or physical law, just removal of facility.

אָרַח

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 4 of 230 (274311)
12-31-2005 12:43 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Brian
12-30-2005 4:52 AM


A few scripture references
You have already dismissed the main scriptural source for there being no death before the Fall:
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Yes I understand your argument that if he knew the word, he knew the reality. The verse however clearly says he will die, implying that at present death is alien to him. I wonder if you would at least be so kind as to recognize that much of the church has interpreted it this way over the centuries, although you disagree with it, rather than simply insisting on it and ridiculing it.
The thing about the Bible is that it has a wonderful consistency to those of us who believe it as written. Everything confirms everything else. The more we learn about it the more we appreciate its interwoven intricacies across the centuries of its writing. So, other Biblical verses I would mention as confirmatory are
which shows the shortening lifespans of Adam's descendants down to Noah. This shortening continues after Noah until God fixes human age at 70. This gradual decline is what would be expected from the introduction of death to an originally immortal Adam, as sin accumulated in the human race generation to generation.
Then there's
Gen 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also [is] flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
When God says He will not always strive with man for he is but flesh, this is to say that he has lost the divine spiritual life originally given to Adam, and is now predominantly the mere physical shell of his former self.
This implies the death of the divine spirit was immediate with the Fall.
Then there are the promises of God throughout the OT to save humanity from our sins, and ultimately the coming of Jesus Christ to fulfill them.
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.
You can of course say, sure, death came WITH him, as part of the original package, but "entered into the world" seems to me to contradict that idea, and it also appears to me to include ALL life, not just human beings.
I'm sure there's quite a bit more but these are all that occur at the moment.
And I'm sure you have answers to them, and I think I'd rather just let it stand that we disagree on these interpretations rather than debate you about them, which usually gets very unpleasant. I also have a heavy cold and don't feel much up to it at the moment, though, so later I may be more motivated.
This message has been edited by Faith, 12-31-2005 01:48 AM

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ReverendDG
Member (Idle past 4110 days)
Posts: 1119
From: Topeka,kansas
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 5 of 230 (274313)
12-31-2005 12:56 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Brian
12-30-2005 4:52 AM


there was death before the fall, if you define plants as life, I've had people dismiss plants as being alive, but what are plants then some odd living yet non-living thing?
if the animals were all herbivores then things died

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 6 of 230 (274317)
12-31-2005 1:39 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by ReverendDG
12-31-2005 12:56 AM


OK I'll count plants as dying but I don't think they are regarded by the Bible writers or the church as alive or dead in quite the same sense as animals and people. They were given specifically to BE food, whereas animals appear to have been given for man's pleasure and companionship. But in the end animals will become peaceable and "the lion will lie down with the lamb." Eating plants no doubt.
This message has been edited by Faith, 12-31-2005 01:46 AM

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Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 7 of 230 (274339)
12-31-2005 5:24 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by arachnophilia
12-31-2005 12:03 AM


Re: diablo advocati
evidently not since he didn't take god too seriously.
Why would God threaten Adam with something that Adam would have no idea about?
I know Yahweh isn't exaclty the cleverest god going about, but even He would surely know that His victim would have to know what He was talking about.
Don't you think if God said to Adam, "eat that fruit and you will surely graxficilate", that Adam would ask what 'graxficilate' means?
Brian.

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Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 8 of 230 (274342)
12-31-2005 5:26 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Faith
12-31-2005 12:43 AM


Re: A few scripture references
Hi F,
You have already dismissed the main scriptural source for there being no death before the Fall:
I have no problem with there being no human death before the Fall in Christian theology. But, I have been told by many Christians that NOTHING died before the Fall. This is what I am asking for clarification about. If there was no death at all then surely these people must have support for that belief in the Bible, I just don't see where they are getting it from, as I do not see any text that even hints at this. I do see a fair bit of text that contradicts this belief, the eating of plants for example.
Brian.

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nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 9 of 230 (274360)
12-31-2005 8:30 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by ReverendDG
12-31-2005 12:56 AM


there was death before the fall, if you define plants as life, I've had people dismiss plants as being alive, but what are plants then some odd living yet non-living thing?
I have seen a creationist comment suggesting that only fruits, seeds and vegetative growth were eaten prior to the fall. Thus the plant would not be killed.
Hmm, it is a bit strange to not consider seeds to be alive, particularly when many creationists say that a human embryo is a living baby.

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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 10 of 230 (274373)
12-31-2005 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by nwr
12-31-2005 8:30 AM


Seed Purpose
quote:
I have seen a creationist comment suggesting that only fruits, seeds and vegetative growth were eaten prior to the fall. Thus the plant would not be killed.
I guess the next question would be: Since God made fruits (which contain seeds) and seeds, which deal with plant reproduction; did God intend for the plants to die?
He provided for replacements. Not all plants that produce edible fruit continue to live once the fruit has ripened.
Did they not eat any of the root plants like carrots, potatoes, etc.? I think fruit is considered produce of the ground and not just from the trees.
So if they ate roots then they pretty much killed the plant.
Just a thought.

There are two ways of spreading light: to be the candle or the mirror that reflects it. -Edith Wharton

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Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 1337 days)
Posts: 712
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 11 of 230 (274405)
12-31-2005 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Brian
12-30-2005 4:52 AM


Death before the fall...
My own thoughts are that death was indeed possible for man before the fall. I'm also fairly sure that Adam knew wha death was based on plant life and animals dying.
I also think that humanity certainly had the capacity to die, but that they were being preserved from this so long as they remained within his grace. When they fell from grace God appears to withdraw them from the "tree of life", which, as far as I'm able to determine, was the agent that God was going to use to perpetuate their life.
The fall for me does not mean "spiritual death" for humanity -- although "spiritually wounded" might be applicable. It seems to me that the fall means "physical death" for humanity -- and being "mortal" means "death dealing".

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Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 12 of 230 (274407)
12-31-2005 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Faith
12-31-2005 12:43 AM


Re: A few scripture references
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
He ate. He didn't die in that day. Doesn't that bug you?

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 13 of 230 (274412)
12-31-2005 1:45 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Coragyps
12-31-2005 1:06 PM


Re: A few scripture references
He ate. He didn't die in that day. Doesn't that bug you?
Not at all, because I know that death encompasses a lot LOT more than our ultimate physical death. They died. In a sense we are all dead until regenerated in Christ. The whole human race has been dead since then -- spiritually dead, meaning alienated from the life that is in God, and subject to all kinds of infirmities both physical and mental. All that is death.
This is implied in what Christ did by dying for us: Those who are in Him are regenerated, God's life is restored in us:
Eph 2:1 And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins;
ol 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
This message has been edited by Faith, 12-31-2005 02:49 PM

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 14 of 230 (274413)
12-31-2005 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Brian
12-31-2005 5:26 AM


Re: A few scripture references
I guess I misunderstood you then. As for the death of animals I believe that's included in the statement I quoted about how "death entered the world" with Adam's sin. I believe that says that there was no death before the Fall. And although it doesn't say it in so many words, the concept of the creation's being cursed for humanity's sake also indicates that animals died after the Fall, but not before. As I said, I don't think plants count; they were given for food. Only after the Fall were animals also given for food.
{ABE: Also, Rom 8:22 "For we know that the whole creation groans and travails in pain together until now." is read to refer to the cursing of the creation for the sake of humanity which includes the death of animals.
{ABE: It is also inferred from the history of animal sacrifice for sin, which prefigures the sacrifice of Christ:
Death Before Sin?
When man fell, God cursed him with both physical and spiritual death. God took it upon Himself to provide an atonement for the original couple; He took two animals and made clothing. In order to get animal skins, the animals must have been killed. Sin always brings with it death, and this is the first recorded death. These two animals provided a blood sacrifice atoning for Adam's and Eve's sin. We are told in Hebrews 9:22 "without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin." So a blood sacrifice is only necessary if there is sin. The rest of the Old Testament has similar treatment of sacrifice for atonement. If there was animal death before the fall of man, then God and all those who followed His pattern did useless acts. One must observe that in the atonement the animal loses its life in the place of the human. If animal death existed before the fall, then the object lesson represented by the atoning sacrifice is in reality a cruel joke.
This message has been edited by Faith, 12-31-2005 02:45 PM

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ReverendDG
Member (Idle past 4110 days)
Posts: 1119
From: Topeka,kansas
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 15 of 230 (274434)
12-31-2005 3:49 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by nwr
12-31-2005 8:30 AM


it only works if there was some sort of restriction on the animals, they have a tendency to kill the plants, by cropping them down to the roots, as for seeds, i would consider them alive, there is a little plant in there

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