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Author Topic:   Death before the 'Fall'?
Funkaloyd
Inactive Member


Message 16 of 230 (274472)
12-31-2005 5:49 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Faith
12-31-2005 1:45 PM


Re: A few scripture references
Death is a subject discussed a lot in Genesis; why does it only mean "spiritual death" in this one instance? What's your reasoning?
From where I'm standing, it looks a lot like you're reinterpreting the obvious literal meaning of the Bible in order to fit it with your beliefs.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Faith, posted 12-31-2005 1:45 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Faith, posted 12-31-2005 5:57 PM Funkaloyd has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 17 of 230 (274473)
12-31-2005 5:57 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Funkaloyd
12-31-2005 5:49 PM


Re: A few scripture references
I didn't limit it to spiritual death.
Where would I get my beliefs exxcept from the Bible?
This message has been edited by Faith, 12-31-2005 05:58 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Funkaloyd, posted 12-31-2005 5:49 PM Funkaloyd has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 19 by Funkaloyd, posted 12-31-2005 6:14 PM Faith has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 18 of 230 (274481)
12-31-2005 6:10 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Faith
12-31-2005 5:57 PM


Re: A few scripture references
Where would I get my beliefs exxcept from the Bible?
I would hope that you get most of them by looking around and seeing the way the world really is.
If the way you get your beliefs is not as I just suggested, then it won't be long before you walk in front of a truck (or bus or car) and you will not be long in this world.

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 Message 17 by Faith, posted 12-31-2005 5:57 PM Faith has not replied

  
Funkaloyd
Inactive Member


Message 19 of 230 (274482)
12-31-2005 6:14 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Faith
12-31-2005 5:57 PM


Re: A few scripture references
That's what I'm wondering: where did you get the idea that God was referring to "spiritual death"?

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 Message 17 by Faith, posted 12-31-2005 5:57 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Faith, posted 12-31-2005 7:45 PM Funkaloyd has replied
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Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 20 of 230 (274490)
12-31-2005 7:14 PM


As far as plants not being "alive" Biblically, there's a pretty easy out in the Noah story: all N had to take on the ark were things "with the breath of life in their nostrils." Plants have stomata, not nostrils, so they aren't alive according to this myth. 'Course, insects don't have nostrils either, but hey, ancient Hebrews didn't have magnifying glasses.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 21 of 230 (274495)
12-31-2005 7:45 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Funkaloyd
12-31-2005 6:14 PM


Re: A few scripture references
From lots of teaching over the years I guess, and from having the Spirit so I understand it.

This message is a reply to:
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 Message 23 by Funkaloyd, posted 12-31-2005 8:36 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 22 of 230 (274496)
12-31-2005 7:45 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Coragyps
12-31-2005 7:14 PM


Right, that's a good hint, thanks.
This message has been edited by Faith, 12-31-2005 07:46 PM

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Funkaloyd
Inactive Member


Message 23 of 230 (274508)
12-31-2005 8:36 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Faith
12-31-2005 7:45 PM


Re: A few scripture references
Fair enough, I won't pursue this. But the next time you feel like judging someone's interpretation of the Bible as "not literal", remember that others feel that Holy Spirit, too.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Faith, posted 12-31-2005 7:45 PM Faith has replied

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 24 of 230 (274513)
12-31-2005 9:01 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Funkaloyd
12-31-2005 8:36 PM


Re: A few scripture references
deleted.
This message has been edited by Faith, 12-31-2005 09:02 PM

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 25 of 230 (274578)
01-01-2006 4:00 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Brian
12-31-2005 5:24 AM


Re: diablo advocati
Why would God threaten Adam with something that Adam would have no idea about?
brian, i hope you realize that i wasn't being totally serious with that comment. evidently, adam DOES take him seriously, enough that his wife is afraid to go near it until the snake convices her.
adam does seem to have some idea what death is, though never having experienced it around him. he's just stupid (in my educated opinion).

אָרַח

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Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 26 of 230 (274582)
01-01-2006 4:28 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Faith
12-31-2005 1:39 AM


God doesn't know plants are alive?
OK I'll count plants as dying but I don't think they are regarded by the Bible writers or the church as alive or dead in quite the same sense as animals and people.
I thought you were a literalist?
Didn't Moses write Genesis under the direction of God? You would think that God would know that plants were alive wouldn't you? Irrespective of what the Bible writers or church thought, plants are alive, and humans and animals ate them, so this no death before the Fall is a lie.
They were given specifically to BE food,
And had nothing to do with the ecosystem?
whereas animals appear to have been given for man's pleasure and companionship.
Adam certainly had a lot of pleasure with animals, really icky that one.
But in the end animals will become peaceable and "the lion will lie down with the lamb."
You do know that this is a metaphor?
Eating plants no doubt.
In the end, we won't be eating anything in God's spiritual kingdom.
Brian.

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Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 27 of 230 (274583)
01-01-2006 4:33 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
12-31-2005 12:59 PM


Re: Death before the fall...
My own thoughts are that death was indeed possible for man before the fall.
I think it would have to be, otherwise Adam could have cut his own head off and still lived
I'm also fairly sure that Adam knew wha death was based on plant life and animals dying.
Indeed, he must have seen animals eating other animals, even insects being eaten by predators.
I also think that humanity certainly had the capacity to die, but that they were being preserved from this so long as they remained within his grace. When they fell from grace God appears to withdraw them from the "tree of life", which, as far as I'm able to determine, was the agent that God was going to use to perpetuate their life.
It is pretty sad though that God kept the 'sentence' going right through their descendants. As I said before, how just is it that I should be put in prison becuase my great grandfather robbed a bank? The Christian concept of original sin is so flawed that I really don't know how it has lasted this long.
The fall for me does not mean "spiritual death" for humanity -- although "spiritually wounded" might be applicable. It seems to me that the fall means "physical death" for humanity -- and being "mortal" means "death dealing".
The Eden myths certainly helped ancient Israelite societies to come to some sort of understanding about their world in a pre scientific time. But, as humans and ideas have evolved, I think it is time to move out of the naive world of the ancients and put these stories soundly into the literature shelf.
Brian.
This message has been edited by Brian, 01-01-2006 04:38 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 12-31-2005 12:59 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

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Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 28 of 230 (274584)
01-01-2006 5:14 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Brian
12-30-2005 4:52 AM


Brian writes:
quote:
If anything, the Bible suggests that there was death before the Fall since God threatened Adam with death then surely Adam would have to know what death was!
More directly: God says that he needs to kick Adam and Eve out of Eden lest they eat from the tree of life and live forever.
This means that they were going to die.

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Brian, posted 12-30-2005 4:52 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
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Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 29 of 230 (274592)
01-01-2006 6:58 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by Rrhain
01-01-2006 5:14 AM


Only after the Fall
Hi Rrain, good to see you again.
More directly: God says that he needs to kick Adam and Eve out of Eden lest they eat from the tree of life and live forever.
However, this was after the Fall, so they MAY have been immortal.
The possible scenario is this. Man created immortal, man disobeys God and eats the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, man thus becomes like God, God takes away their immortality, God fears that they get their immortality back by eating from the tree of life, so God kicks them out of paradise.
It is a nice wee philosophical tale. Explians why there is suffering in this world, and why we have to die.
Bugger all about spiritual death though, that is just an apologetic to explain away an error in the tale.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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 Message 44 by Rrhain, posted 01-01-2006 10:56 PM Brian has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 30 of 230 (274660)
01-01-2006 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Brian
01-01-2006 6:58 AM


Re: Only after the Fall
Did God kick all the animals out of the Garden?
Do the worms left in the Garden that eat the fruit of the Tree of Life live forever?
Do the animals that eat the fruit of the Tree of Life live forever?
If a bat eats the fruit of the Tree of Life does it become a Vampire?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Brian, posted 01-01-2006 6:58 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
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