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Author Topic:   What does life do outside of science?
crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 91 of 112 (247206)
09-29-2005 7:48 AM
Reply to: Message 88 by b b
09-29-2005 12:40 AM


Re: I don't get it at all
There are tribes that do a lot of things of that nature such as firewalking and probably drinking various potions.

Dude, you can firewalk in your backyard. There's nothing magic or supernatural about it. Hot coals are a poor conductor of heat.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by b b, posted 09-29-2005 12:40 AM b b has not yet responded

  
nator
Member (Idle past 343 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 92 of 112 (247211)
09-29-2005 8:15 AM
Reply to: Message 88 by b b
09-29-2005 12:40 AM


Re: I don't get it at all
quote:
I wouldn't do that.

Why wouldn't you heal people by laying your hands on them? That's something that all of Jesus' followers are able to do so that all people can see how powerful your religion is. It's part of what Jesus' followers are supposed to do to spread the religion. The same goes for drinking poison without harm.

...that is, if you take the Bible as literally true, like you said you did.

I mean, where do you think those Christian TV faith healers get the idea that laying their hands upon someone could heal that person's gall bladder cancer?

Where do you think those Charismatics got the idea they should be playing with poisonous snakes during their Sunday services?

Tell me how you would read the following passage. Remember, you said that if the bible said there were flying dogs, that you would believe it:

Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

Mar 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Mar 16:19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

Mar 16:20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with [them], and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

quote:
There are tribes that do a lot of things of that nature such as firewalking and probably drinking various potions.

Do you mean "tribes" like "Chrisitan sects"?

Like the ones who "speak in tongues", handle poisonous snakes, and perform so-called "faith healings" on national TV?

quote:
I beleive if it is God's will(being that I do believe he is the creator and that his will controls everything)for one to survive the poison one will.

According to the Bible, one only has to be a believer and you should be able to remain unharmed after drinking any deadly thing. It doesn't say you will "recover" or merely "survive".

I thought you said you believed the Bible literally? It seems you have never read this part very closely.

quote:
I don't know his will so I would not chance it.

What do you mean? His will is quite clear to me in the passage above.

quote:
My bible also tells me not to tempt God.

But it is God's clear diretive that His followers, those who believe in Him, will be able to do these things, and are, in fact, required to do these things as signs that God is with them and to impress potential converts that this new religion was the real one.

quote:
I take that literal too. Tempt - as in purposely drinking poison

But the bible very clearly says that believers will be able to do these things. It doesn't say "some believers", or "a few". It just says that all people will be able to identify these believers by various signs.

Are you not a believer, or is the Bible wrong?

quote:
I don't know if this is the intended meaning or just an interpretation of what is, but I would not chance it being that I don't fully understand this.

What's ambiguous about that passage?

It seems that in a straightforward, literal reading of it that any believer should be able to drink any deadly thing without harm, and also be able to heal the sick by laying hands upon them.

Are you telling me that God wouldn't approve of you healing the sick, that it would be "tempting" him to help those in pain?

quote:
My ignorance here is why I would not try it; not that it does not mean what it says.

Look, I don't think that you have to be afraid of healing somebody.

It's a power that all of you believers are supposed to have.

...that is, if you take the Bible literally.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by b b, posted 09-29-2005 12:40 AM b b has not yet responded

    
nator
Member (Idle past 343 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 93 of 112 (249287)
10-05-2005 9:39 PM


bump for b b
.
    
SuperNintendo Chalmers
Member (Idle past 4007 days)
Posts: 772
From: Bartlett, IL, USA
Joined: 12-27-2005


Message 94 of 112 (274271)
12-30-2005 7:10 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by PurpleYouko
09-12-2005 3:51 PM


Re: I don't get it at all
I guess that counts me out then. I don't really feel that my life or that of anyone else has any objective meaning whatsoever in the grand scheme of things.
That doesn't mean that I want it to end or that I don't respect it in others. It is just that IMO "meaning" is a meaningless concept. It is just the product of uncaring physics and chemistry. Everything that we see, hear, feel and see is just a bunch of meaningless chemical reactions (which science can quite easily measure).

Purple, I somewhat agree...

However, I would say that the only "meaning" that an individual's life has is that which we create for ourselves. We have brains/minds for a reason right? I think your intelligence can provide an individual their own meaning.

Of course that means that there is technically no "universal" meaning of life. Only that which we create for ourselves.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by PurpleYouko, posted 09-12-2005 3:51 PM PurpleYouko has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by PurpleYouko, posted 12-31-2005 2:02 PM SuperNintendo Chalmers has not yet responded

  
PurpleYouko
Member
Posts: 713
From: Columbia Missouri
Joined: 11-11-2004


Message 95 of 112 (274417)
12-31-2005 2:02 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by SuperNintendo Chalmers
12-30-2005 7:10 PM


Re: I don't get it at all
Hi Mini-Dikta

I think you expressed that very well.
The only meaning that there can be to anything is that which we, as individuals, place on it.

I don't see any way that there can be any "universal meaning of life"


This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by SuperNintendo Chalmers, posted 12-30-2005 7:10 PM SuperNintendo Chalmers has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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Ben!
Member (Idle past 1795 days)
Posts: 1154
From: San Diego, CA
Joined: 10-14-2004


Message 96 of 112 (274419)
12-31-2005 2:09 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by PurpleYouko
12-31-2005 2:02 PM


Re: I don't get it at all
universal meaning of life

Seems to me, "meaning" derives from "purpose" which derives from "intention" or "conscious perception."

So the question of meaning seems to have to do with conscious observers and actors. Since we don't have a real good test for consciousness, then what consciousnesses exist is a matter of faith.

I guess what I'm getting at is that "meaning" falls out directly from a world view. No universal world view, no universal meaning.

Although I would vehemently disagree with anybody who would claim that meaning is established intellectually. You can search for meaning intellectually, but I've yet to meet somebody who intentionally learned to find meaning in a task because they intellectually thought it was the right thing.

Ben


This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by PurpleYouko, posted 12-31-2005 2:02 PM PurpleYouko has not yet responded

    
joshua221 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 97 of 112 (274487)
12-31-2005 7:06 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by crashfrog
09-11-2005 10:33 AM


Science is the study of the physical world. One cannot know of anything that is of importance within the realm of science. Meaning, true purpose, it all comes in the realm of spirituality, God, the search for truth. Socrates said it best when he discussed what he thought was truly important in life.

Not that Science is bad thing, but it is largely unimportant in what is truth in life, and in what comes after life.

quote:
I find science to be both a source of meaning and value, so it's not clear to me, exactly, what you're talking about here. Why can't science inform us as to the value and meaning of our lives?

Because as much as what surrouds us can speak to us at times, what really matters exists within ourselves. The measurment and calculation of this earth is not what life is about. Nwr will tell me that it is subjective, but one cannot be a relativist, there lies in life, absolute truth. And these truths exist in the pursuit of God.

Read the book "Demian" by Herman Hesse.


"The old man cries in the sorrow of eternity." Van Gogh
This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by crashfrog, posted 09-11-2005 10:33 AM crashfrog has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by nwr, posted 12-31-2005 7:18 PM joshua221 has responded
 Message 108 by nwr, posted 01-01-2006 2:14 AM joshua221 has responded

  
joshua221 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 98 of 112 (274491)
12-31-2005 7:18 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by crashfrog
09-29-2005 7:46 AM


Re: I don't get it at all
quote:
Isn't it obvious that, if God exists, God doesn't want us to believe it exists? That would explain the lack of intervention, the failure to provide any type of guidance or message, and the irrefutable appearance in the universe of things not being designed. It would explain the fact that, no matter what we study, we can explain it without recourse to the intervention of God. The very nature of the universe proclaims one obvious truth - either God doesn't exist, or it's absolutely determined to convince us that it doesn't. So shouldn't you take it at it's word?

"The world is illusory, Brahma alone is real."

The hindus have said that this physical realm is an illusion, that traps mankind into believing that it is what is true. These seemingly "tell-tale" signs that you have seen and observered telling you that God doesn't exist is part of this trap, or illusion.


"The old man cries in the sorrow of eternity." Van Gogh
This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by crashfrog, posted 09-29-2005 7:46 AM crashfrog has not yet responded

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 5585
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005


Message 99 of 112 (274492)
12-31-2005 7:18 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by joshua221
12-31-2005 7:06 PM


The physical world
Science is the study of the physical world. One cannot know of anything that is of importance within the realm of science. Meaning, true purpose, it all comes in the realm of spirituality, God, the search for truth. Socrates said it best when he discussed what he thought was truly important in life.

The physical world brings you food to eat, water to drink, air to breath. How long do you think you would last if you instead relied on the spiritual world for those?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by joshua221, posted 12-31-2005 7:06 PM joshua221 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by joshua221, posted 12-31-2005 7:35 PM nwr has responded

  
joshua221 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 100 of 112 (274493)
12-31-2005 7:35 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by nwr
12-31-2005 7:18 PM


Re: The physical world
"Those" do not pertain to my destiny.


"The old man cries in the sorrow of eternity." Van Gogh
This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by nwr, posted 12-31-2005 7:18 PM nwr has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by nwr, posted 01-01-2006 12:23 AM joshua221 has responded

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 5585
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005


Message 101 of 112 (274532)
01-01-2006 12:23 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by joshua221
12-31-2005 7:35 PM


Re: The physical world
"Those" do not pertain to my destiny.

That is where you are seriously mistaken. Food, drink, breathing are central to your destiny.

If you were suffering from thirst, had pangs of hunger, and if it were a struggle for you to get your next breath of air, you would find it almost impossible to even think about spirituality. It is only because you have the fortune to be well fed and have your other basic physiological needs satisfied that you are even able to think of spiritual things.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by joshua221, posted 12-31-2005 7:35 PM joshua221 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by joshua221, posted 01-01-2006 12:46 AM nwr has responded
 Message 103 by Nuggin, posted 01-01-2006 1:35 AM nwr has not yet responded
 Message 104 by Nuggin, posted 01-01-2006 1:35 AM nwr has not yet responded

  
joshua221 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 102 of 112 (274535)
01-01-2006 12:46 AM
Reply to: Message 101 by nwr
01-01-2006 12:23 AM


Re: The physical world
There are those who wander the earth seeking truth who desire not food or water, I forget their name, but they are in the book Siddhartha, may be fictional, but I am sure there does exist people of the same nature. They attempt to lose all of their desires, but they always end up begging someone for something to eat, or drink after long periods of fasting.

The point is clear. I think that spirituality is of more importance to mankind, then is even survival.

But sir, you need survival to think.

I know, but those who starve know God.

You are right though, I am lucky. I know that though. I was born here. I try to take advatage of it. But I know that if I was in a tribal land, I would still find God, the soul's satisfaction is main priority, not satisfaction of the body.


"The old man cries in the sorrow of eternity." Van Gogh
This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by nwr, posted 01-01-2006 12:23 AM nwr has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by nwr, posted 01-01-2006 2:08 AM joshua221 has responded

  
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 666 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 103 of 112 (274552)
01-01-2006 1:35 AM
Reply to: Message 101 by nwr
01-01-2006 12:23 AM


Spirit/Suffering
if it were a struggle for you to get your next breath of air, you would find it almost impossible to even think about spirituality.

I gotta disagree. It's often those in the worst shape that are the most spiritual.

I suspect that even the hardest skin atheist has 2nd thoughts while fighting for his last breath.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by nwr, posted 01-01-2006 12:23 AM nwr has not yet responded

    
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 666 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 104 of 112 (274553)
01-01-2006 1:35 AM
Reply to: Message 101 by nwr
01-01-2006 12:23 AM


Spirit/Suffering
if it were a struggle for you to get your next breath of air, you would find it almost impossible to even think about spirituality.

I gotta disagree. It's often those in the worst shape that are the most spiritual.

I suspect that even the hardest skin atheist has 2nd thoughts while fighting for his last breath.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by nwr, posted 01-01-2006 12:23 AM nwr has not yet responded

    
joshua221 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 105 of 112 (274555)
01-01-2006 1:39 AM


haha double poster.


"The old man cries in the sorrow of eternity." Van Gogh
Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by Adminnemooseus, posted 01-01-2006 1:46 AM joshua221 has not yet responded

  
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