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Author Topic:   Man raised back to life in Jesus' name
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 144 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 38 of 300 (273011)
12-26-2005 7:50 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Theodoric
12-26-2005 7:38 PM


prove it how?
If you expect us to take any f this as proof, please provide reference to these reports of this miracle.

i'm gonna interrupt this because it's getting stupid (on both sides).

you can't prove a miracle, you know it. miracles are by definition outside the realm of naturalism, and thus cannot be shown by any amount of evidence. it is therefor up to the person claiming it is not a miracle to provide evidence to the contrary -- if a natural explanation can be shown, it is NOT a miracle.

this is substantially different than, say, the loch ness monster. nessie, presumably, if she exists, is a real animal. so in the abscence of credible evidence the burden of proof lays on the person making the claim. they can reasonably go out, and capture nessie, and show that she does exist.

we can't do this with miracles -- all we CAN show is that something is not a miracle. the best we can do with a miracle to show that to the best of our knowledge something COULD be.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Theodoric, posted 12-26-2005 7:38 PM Theodoric has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Theodoric, posted 12-26-2005 7:57 PM arachnophilia has not yet responded
 Message 40 by Asgara, posted 12-26-2005 8:00 PM arachnophilia has responded
 Message 155 by sidelined, posted 01-07-2006 3:36 AM arachnophilia has responded

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 144 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 45 of 300 (273059)
12-26-2005 10:48 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Asgara
12-26-2005 8:00 PM


Re: prove it how?
But when one makes the claim of a miracle I would expect there to be more reports, doctors records...if something medically miraculous happened I would expect corroborating reports of it happening. Without this it is only a subjective claim. Miracle it may be, but it is just heresay.

yes, SOMETHING would be nice. people who like to make extraordinary claims seem to like third-hand tales, fuzzy pictures, and shaky home videos.

("heresay" = hearsay + heresy?)


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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 144 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 84 of 300 (274563)
01-01-2006 2:29 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by Faith
12-31-2005 9:33 PM


Re: Health
metaphors?

quote:
Job 1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name [was] Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

Job 2:7 So went Satan forth from the presence of the LORD, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown.



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This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Faith, posted 12-31-2005 9:33 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by Faith, posted 01-01-2006 2:39 AM arachnophilia has responded

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 144 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 285 of 300 (283183)
02-01-2006 1:28 PM
Reply to: Message 155 by sidelined
01-07-2006 3:36 AM


Re: prove it how?
I wish I had caught this one earlier but I just have to ask. If a miracle occurs but there is never evidence for it then what evidence swayed you to think a miracle had occured?

heh, i guess i missed this one too.

why, the immutable truth of the eyewitness account, of course. :D

good question though. the only real answer, i guess, is a "god of the gaps" answer: something we cannot explain naturalistically.


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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 144 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 286 of 300 (283185)
02-01-2006 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by Faith
01-01-2006 2:39 AM


Re: Health
Of course not metaphors. In that case the suffering was a test. Job was certainly a righteous man, but like everyone else he'd inherited the sin nature -- or no suffering could have touched him (the only perfectly righteous man was Jesus, who had to choose to suffer and die bearing the sins of others, because in Himself he couldn't die).

well, than job makes no sense. it's no test if job deserves his punishment.

also, i'm not sure that this jesus bit makes much sense either. how could suffering touch christ if he was born without original sin? and how could he die for our sins, if he couldn't die?

Happy New Year Arach.

I disagree with just about everything you write, but I hope it doesn't get personal.

i guess i missed this post before. going through old posts now that i can check my email. but, uh, belated happy new year to you too!


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Faith, posted 01-01-2006 2:39 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 287 by Faith, posted 02-01-2006 1:46 PM arachnophilia has responded

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 144 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 288 of 300 (283199)
02-01-2006 2:21 PM
Reply to: Message 287 by Faith
02-01-2006 1:46 PM


Re: Health
well, that still doesn't explain job. do we need original sin? why?


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 287 by Faith, posted 02-01-2006 1:46 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 289 by Faith, posted 02-01-2006 2:30 PM arachnophilia has responded

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 144 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 290 of 300 (283211)
02-01-2006 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 289 by Faith
02-01-2006 2:30 PM


Re: Health
I think original sin makes all the suffering in the world understandable, and that without it there is no reasonable -- or acceptable -- explanation for it.

It also explains why Job could suffer and yet be a righteous man -- because nobody is perfectly righteous no matter how righteous. As I said already though. So I guess you're convinced or you're not.

i guess i'm not. because if job has any sin at all, he has no right to complain. he's getting what he deserves. job DOES have explanation of why bad things happen to good people, and it's not original sin. it's not particularly comforting in the way the book of job puts it, or a very good answer, but it's an answer nonetheless.

note also hat original sin isn't so much as mentioned anywhere in the book. that would have been a good explanation from god: "blame it on adam." but the idea isn't even there.


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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 144 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 294 of 300 (283232)
02-01-2006 4:06 PM
Reply to: Message 292 by Faith
02-01-2006 3:59 PM


Re: Job
One has to read the Bible intelligently, not literal-mindedly looking for things to be said "in so many words.

well, yes, i agree with this statement. however, we can't just go quotemining for dogma and read whatever we want into it either.

in the case of job, original sin can only be inferred to NOT be in place. it would negate the premise of job being upright and not deserving the curses put upon him. the question of job is "why do bad things happen to good people?" and the answer doesn't appear to be quite that "there is no such thing as a good person."

job is blameless, and upright. perfect in everyway. the closest we get to original sin is the comparison between god and job -- next to god, job (perfect though he is) is nothing, and evil. but i think that's more a statement about GOD than it is about job.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 292 by Faith, posted 02-01-2006 3:59 PM Faith has not yet responded

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 144 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 297 of 300 (283236)
02-01-2006 4:15 PM
Reply to: Message 295 by Faith
02-01-2006 4:09 PM


Re: Job
Original sin is inferred from other parts of the Bible. The Bible is understood to be a consistent whole by my branch of Christianity. Therefore whatever is true for one book is true for all books. It does not have to be stated. Other parts of the Bible say clearly that there is NO one righteous, no not one.

right, sure. but it says that job *IS* righteous.

perhaps it's good to look at the whole of job, not just the first few sentances. job is perfect -- except when compared to god. maybe that's what paul meant. so perhaps job has some insight on romans, not the other way around.

Yes, God decreed his suffering at the request of the devil. This is the reason for his suffering. But it would not have been possible if Job were perfectly righteous.

it's more a matter of who's in charge. if you get in a fight with god, you're wrong whether or not you might have a point.


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