Death before the 'Fall'?

At least he didn't have to cut off his own ambilical cord. I suspect that Adam never sat around contemplating his naval. In keeping with the spirit of this thread I will note that there are some who seem to think that there was no death at all prior to "the fall". However, and I've pointed this out before to those who hold this view, the very command by God to "subdue the earth" seems to contradict this belief (in my opinion).For example, when I read the original account found in Genesis I read: Some say that this subdual only applies to "tilling the ground". However, when I've examined the Scriptures to see how the word subdue is used elsewhere I've seen nothing to indicate that this context is the way it should be used.For example, you can check out this link here if you wish (so that I do not load up this post with extra verbiage): Usage of the Word SUBDUE within the ScripturesAs just a few examples one could examine Numbers 32:29 which plainly states: There's also this passage found in Deuteronomy 9:3: I will note that it seems to me that many of these passage also talk about the land that the Lord has given to them -- implying a brutal land war far more than a peaceful agricultural occupation. It's also pretty sad when a mother addicted to crack cocaine give birth to the mythological "crack baby" that is born going through withdrawals -- but it's a reality even if the initial reports of permanent effects were blown out of proportion.According to Fetal nicotine or cocaine exposure: which one is worse? there are still some very real dangers associated with the usage of cocaine on the fetus of a pregnant woman. Despite recent studies that failed to show catastrophic effects of prenatal cocaine exposure, popular attitudes and public policies still reflect the belief that cocaine is a uniquely dangerous teratogen.In contrast to the effects of nicotine, animal models of crack cocaine use in pregnancy indicate a more restricted spectrum of effects, a reflection of differences both in pharmacokinetics and pharmacodynamics of the two drugs. Notably, although cocaine, like nicotine, also targets cell replication, its effects are short-lived, permitting recovery to occur in between doses, so that the eventual consequences are much less severe. To some extent, the effects of cocaine on brain development resemble those of nicotine because the two share cardiovascular actions (vasoconstriction) that, under some circumstances, elicit fetal hypoxia-ischemia.Another article discusses the effects of cocaine on the development of the fetus as follows: Research Shows Effects of Prenatal Cocaine Exposure Are Subtle But SignificantComing back to the effects of partaking in the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, one could reasobaly argue that eating this "fruit" had caused neurological damage -- some kind of long-term genetic damage to Adam and Eve, genetic damage that carried on from ancestor to ancestor (just like what happens in real life).Here's some real world examples of neurological and genetic damage {among other things} that can result from eating certain chemicals: Commonly Abused DrugsOr, if this doesn't cover enough of a longer term answer, do a search for genetic toxicology studies. Who said Adam and Eve was put into prison?Seems to me that they were condemned to be free becuase they didn't want to follow God's instructions. This is such a basic part of being a responsible parent that it smacks of common sense.Are you a parent?If so, you do realize how much the choices you make can effect the future of your children?One of the main themese of the story of the Garden seems to be one of "responsibility" -- and the proper taking of responsibility for one's actions. When God asked what was going on, no one took responsibility for their own actions -- Adam blamed Eve and Eve blamed the serpent. Even though temptation occured, each could have stopped the blame process by simply saying something like, "It's my fault ... and I cannot fairly blame anyone else for my own actions." Even in the case of the adversary, it seems to me that he can't make you do anything that you don't alreadyt want to do in the first place. As far as I can tell, for failing to take responsibility they left in shame.On the other hand, coming back to the damage that can be done genetically, just as a child is born with certain ailments or genetic damage due to a parent's abuse of drugs, lifestyle, poor diet, -- the descendents of Adam and Eve have apparnetly reeped the harvest of their own parent's mistakes. You mean the Judeo-Hellenistic concept of original sin which was adopted by Christianity, correct? Unless, of course, these stories do reflect the truth after all, even if they are expressed in a pre-modern Hebraic style.I had mentioned before the following possibility to you -- that the serpent was symbolic of other pagan religions and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was symbolic of some kind of hallucinagenic drug which had spiritual implications among these pagan nations.You've never replied to this possibility if I recall correctly.Anyway, I think I'll keep reading them for a while yet. I also suspect that many others will continue reading them for the centuries to come.This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 01-01-2006 02:24 PM

Well, I will say this. Adam immediately spiritually died as was indicated by his awareness of his sin (nakedness), but he took a long time to die naturally. So it sure seems the text indicates spiritual death preceded natural death.

Brian, you are completely wrong because "death" for this discussion is defined biblically, not scientifically, and so plants have no breath of life and thus do not die in the same sense.Now I suspect Faith and most others including myself that believe the Bible to be true would argue that plant-life was changed, and death affectst the plant-world as well, but strictly speaking concerning "the breath of life" or spirit, it is not clear the biblical text supports plants having spirit.Be that as it may, eating fruit and parts of plants does not mean they would "die" necessarily. So maybe plants did not die before the Fall.

"Must have"??? Please substantiate that. What biblical evidence do you have that animals ate each other prior to the Fall, or ate insects?

I'm not sure how to make sense of that.Are you saying that knowledge = spiritual death? Is that why some creationists work so hard at being ignorant

Knowledge does not, but Adam did not merely increase in knowledge, he had a sense of sin, as was shown by feeling being naked was sinful. His conscience was affected.Obviously, being naked by itself was not sinful.Another point is that many think Adam and Eve were clothed in the Shekinah glory of the Lord, as Moses was when his face shone. As they sinned, they would have less of that glory, perhaps most departed, and so they would have a palpable sense of nakedness that was not there before, even though visually they were just as naked in some respects before and after.The fig trees, though literal, is also indicative of man-made religion.

There are more than a few passages of Scripture which indicate that the "soul that sins will die" -- so I can see why others would conclude that Adam and Eve spiritually died according to the Genesis account.However, me personally, I do not think that Adam and Eve were left spiritually dead after their fall from grace -- especially since they were still talking directly with God "after" they sinned. However, I do believe that they were spiritually wounded after their fall.I don't think that anyone should argue that the state they were in after partaking in the tree of knowledge was better than the state they were in before partaking -- but I'm sure someone here will surprise with some obnoxiously bizarre reason why they were more better off after than before.

There does seem to be good indications that there was violence and death before the fall. Do a search for "subdue" within the Scriptures and see what you come up with -- it's not a pretty picture. Then, after reviewing how the word subdue is used all throughout the Scripture, remember that God asked Adam and Eve to have dominion over the world -- to subdue it. Usage of the word "subdue" within the ScripturesThis message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 01-01-2006 06:02 PM

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Ecclesiastes 1:18 writes:

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For with much wisdom comes much sorrow; the more knowledge, the more grief.

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Is grief the same thing as spiritual death?

Good point. I have wondered about that, and used to hold that subdue meant the earth was already out of whack. It's somewhat unresolved with me at present. The death entering into the world as a result of Adam does not fit well with the subdue comments.

In my opinion? No.However, it seems as though there would be no grief if not for their partaking in the tree.In addition to this, it's fairly common sense that knowing too much before you're ready for it can certainly lead to tremendous grief.

And, just for the record, I also fully admit that I could be wrong in my observation. It just seems to me that Adam and Eve were being preserved from the effects of nature's bondage to decay so long as they remained within God's grace.Other passages in the Scriptures seem to indicate otherwise though. For example, one passage which could very well go against my own thoughts on this is read as follows: So, as far as I can determine, either a) man's purpose was to bring nature's bondage to decay to an end -- and he failed at this task, or b) man's sins lead nature into its bondage to decay due the fall.I'll admit that I'm honestly not exactly sure what's being said in this Roman's passage.Do you have any thoughts regarding it?

Brian responds to me:

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However, this was after the Fall, so they MAY have been immortal.

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And where does one find this in the story? I see no passage anywhere in the story that indicates that Adam was actually immortal. Instead, there's continual talk of the possibility of Adam dying.

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The possible scenario is this. Man created immortal, man disobeys God and eats the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, man thus becomes like God, God takes away their immortality,

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Hold it right there. Where does god "take away their immortality"? Where is that in the story? I've read over the passages and I can't find any inkling of the immortality of Adam being stripped, let alone that he had it in the first place.

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It is a nice wee philosophical tale. Explians why there is suffering in this world, and why we have to die.

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And based upon absolutly nothing. There is no textual justification for this claim. Adam was always going to die. God told him that if he ate of the tree of knowledge, he would die a physical death that very day before the sun set. God panics when Adam and Eve eat from the tree of knowledge and kicks them out before they have a chance to eat from the tree of life and live forever. God hasn't done anything to them and the tree of knowledge hasn't taken anything away from them.Therefore, the only conclusion is that they were going to die anyway.This does lead to an interesting question: Why is god so scared over Adam and Eve becoming immortal?

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Rrhain

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Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

randman responds to Brian:

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Indeed, he must have seen animals eating other animals, even insects being eaten by predators.

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"Must have"??? Please substantiate that. What biblical evidence do you have that animals ate each other prior to the Fall, or ate insects?

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Because lions, for example, are carnivores. Their diet didn't change due to Adam and Eve eating from the tree of knowledge. I've looked through the story and I can't find any mention of such. If you are going to claim that all animals were herbivores, you're going to have to find the textual justification for it.

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Rrhain

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Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.