Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 66 (9164 total)
8 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,465 Year: 3,722/9,624 Month: 593/974 Week: 206/276 Day: 46/34 Hour: 2/6


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Man raised back to life in Jesus' name
nwr
Member
Posts: 6409
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 26 of 300 (272879)
12-26-2005 3:48 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Brian
12-26-2005 4:55 AM


Re: What is 2 plus 2?
Interesting that there are no eyewitness statements to support her claim.
As best I can tell, "miracles" only happen when there are no skeptical eyewitnesses present.

Impeach Bush

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Brian, posted 12-26-2005 4:55 AM Brian has not replied

nwr
Member
Posts: 6409
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 94 of 300 (274816)
01-01-2006 9:55 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by nator
01-01-2006 9:35 PM


Re: prove it
quote:
Let me add a small miracle but which would be hard to fake. I had a friend that had fillings in his teeth go up for prayer in a healing meeting and when he came back to his seat the fillings were gone and he had tooth where the fillings were.
You mention nothing of seeing his fillings before the meeting. Are you saying that you looked in his mouth and recorded which teeth had fillings, or perhaps took a picture, before he went up to the meeting?
If you had looked at a couple of my teeth last November, you would have seen very obvious fillings. If you looked again today, you would see no sign of the fillings.
They are called crowns. I expect that a dentist can distinguish between crowns and plain teeth, but most untrained people could not.

Impeach Bush

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by nator, posted 01-01-2006 9:35 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by nator, posted 01-02-2006 7:27 AM nwr has not replied

nwr
Member
Posts: 6409
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 114 of 300 (275038)
01-02-2006 3:27 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by Phat
01-02-2006 1:20 PM


Re: prove it
It is NOT up to us to prove it. You claim that every issue needs to be framed via empirical observations? I've got news for you---you and your ilk are not the final standard by which to judge the idiosuncracies of life.
It is not up to us to tell you what you should consider a miracle. I agree that no proof is required for that, other that what proof you might yourself need.
In this case, randman posted the report in an attempt to persuade us that there was a miracle. So it is up to randman to provide persuasive evidence. Pragmatically, the burden of proof falls on who would attempt to persuade others.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by Phat, posted 01-02-2006 1:20 PM Phat has not replied

nwr
Member
Posts: 6409
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 150 of 300 (276229)
01-05-2006 9:29 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by Coragyps
01-05-2006 9:27 PM


Or are there documented cases of gold filled teeth from an era before dentists started using them. Or maybe God is not omniscient after all, and had to wait until the dentists discovered the methodology before He knew how to do it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by Coragyps, posted 01-05-2006 9:27 PM Coragyps has not replied

nwr
Member
Posts: 6409
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 161 of 300 (276809)
01-07-2006 9:04 PM
Reply to: Message 158 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
01-07-2006 5:22 PM


Ghost limbs
There are, however, some reports of "ghost limbs" appearing on the MRI's of people who have recently had a limb amputated or severed,
This is likely true if those were MRI brain scans. Ghost limbs are a well known phenomenon. Someone whose legs have been amputated might have sensations of an itchy toe.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 01-07-2006 5:22 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 164 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 01-07-2006 9:55 PM nwr has replied
 Message 166 by crashfrog, posted 01-07-2006 9:58 PM nwr has not replied

nwr
Member
Posts: 6409
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 167 of 300 (276851)
01-07-2006 10:11 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
01-07-2006 9:55 PM


Re: Ghost limbs
Could one consider this as a potential evidence that the soul exists?
In a word, NO.
It is just that the brain wired itself when the limbs were present. Now that they are absent, there are still neural signals that cause sensations that made sense when the limbs were present.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 01-07-2006 9:55 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 01-07-2006 10:49 PM nwr has replied

nwr
Member
Posts: 6409
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 192 of 300 (276946)
01-07-2006 11:44 PM
Reply to: Message 172 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
01-07-2006 10:49 PM


Re: Ghost limbs
There is quite a literature on ghost limbs. Try google.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 01-07-2006 10:49 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 205 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 01-08-2006 12:29 AM nwr has replied

nwr
Member
Posts: 6409
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 208 of 300 (277015)
01-08-2006 12:38 AM
Reply to: Message 205 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
01-08-2006 12:29 AM


Re: Ghost limbs
As far as I know, what happens is that a person has an itchy toe, but no toe to itch. I suppose that is very frustrating.
You really have to ask the people who have had these experiences.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 01-08-2006 12:29 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has not replied

nwr
Member
Posts: 6409
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 230 of 300 (277111)
01-08-2006 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 215 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
01-08-2006 2:54 AM


Mind and matter
It seems to me that you're basically conclusing that mind (or consciousness) is a function of matter -- matter that has attained a certain degree of organization.
That wouldn't be my preferred choice of words, but I basically agree with that.
If so, some neurosurgurians in the field has concluded otherwise.
I would look to neuroscientists, rather than neurosurgeons.
For example, Wilder Penfield actually changed his mind on this very topic based on his own investigations into neurological connections. Penfield is actually considerd the father of modern neurosurgury -- and he, like you, actually started off with the idea that consciousness somehow emanated from the neural activities of the brain.
My own view is that you cannot confine consciousness to be due to the brain. I believe it takes a whole person, and a brain by itself (say a brain in a vat) is not sufficient.
Lee Edward Travis writes:
Penfield would stimulate electrically the proper motor cortx of conscious patients and challenge them to keep one hand from moving when current was applied. The patient would seize his hand with the other hand and struggle to hold it still. Thus one hand under the control of the eletrical current and the other hand under the control of the patient's mind fought against each other.
There is positive evidence that consciousness and the self are not merely a physical process of the brain. We have experimental data where people's brains are electrically stimulatd in order to cause them to move their arms or legs, turn their heads or eyes, talk or swallow. And invariably the patient (each one) would respond by saying something like, "I didn't do that. You did."
I'm not sure what conclusions you are drawing from that. The brain is complex, and the way behavior is generated and controlled is complex. I don't see this as giving any evidence against materialism.
In other words, the patient clearly thinks of himself as having an existence separate from his body. In fact, no matter how far Penfield probed the cerebral cortex, there was no place that he could find where an eletrical stimulation of the brain would cause a patient to "believe" or "decide".
I think the general view is that belief is not a matter of electrical signal, but has to do with the structural organization of the brain. Electrical stimulation could not easily create beliefs. Changes in neural structure would be needed for that.
Decision might be electrical, but it won't be the kind of simple electrical signal that can be generated by probes.
Another study showed a delay between the time an eletric shock was applied to the skin, its reaching the cerebral cortx, and the self conscious perception of it by the person. This too suggests that "the self" is more than just a machine that simply "reacts" to stimuli as it receives them.
Some people have jumped to conclusions as a result of studies of timing differences. But I think those conclusions are premature.
Think about dreaming itself.
How exactly do researchers know that there are a certain eye movements when people are dreaming?
They observe and measure that movement.
You can see eye movement, even when the eye is closed. In sleep labs, they can use instrumentation to measure more precisely.
Researchers can certainly know about the brain by studying it, but they can't know about the mind without asking the person to reveal it.
This is true. Many scientists believe that "mind" is a poor concept to use in scientific discussion. It's a folk theory construct. There are many folk theory constructs that scientists find to be poor concepts. For example, physicists will tell you that "centrifugal force" is a poor term and doesn't actually refer to any real force.
The details of the neurophysiology of the brain can easilly be viewed as merely footprints (in a physical medium) of non-physical, non-genetic supersensible realities connected to the activity of human consciousness. In fact, it seems as though the evidence currently points towards the view that consciousness exists independently of the brain.
That's roughly the view of Cartesian dualism. It's a philosophical position. I don't know of any credible neuro-scientist who believes it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 01-08-2006 2:54 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 234 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 01-08-2006 12:49 PM nwr has replied

nwr
Member
Posts: 6409
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 244 of 300 (277177)
01-08-2006 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 234 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
01-08-2006 12:49 PM


Re: Mind and matter
Not having read the book, I can't comment.
What it suggests is that the mind is something which can work independently from the brain itself. In other words, the basic observation is that people are quite aware of the fact that they are not "willingly" doing the actions that these electrical signals are producing in them. In fact, they can (and have) resisted these impusles using their own consciousness working independently of their own brain synapses.
I disagree with that.
A few years ago, while driving, I was applying the breaks. The car was pretty slow. It should have stopped within another six inches. It didn't. It lurched into the car in front, causing significant damage to both.
Did my car have a mind independent of its physical components? No, it was just that somebody crashed into the rear of my car, and the force of the collision overrode what would normally have been able to control it.
It is the same with the experiments you are describing. Electrical signals were injected, and these directly stimulated motor neurons, causing the movement. The injected signals overrode the volitional control signals from other parts of the brain. I really don't think there is any mystery here.
The researchers I've quoted were actively searching for purely naturalistic causalities within the brain to conclude to the brain itself is the sum total of a person's consciousness. Contrary to what they were expecting to find, however, they found convincing data which appeared to contradict their own assumptions in regards to the "seat of consciousness".
That only shows that we do not yet fully understand the basis for consciousness. It isn't evidence against material causation.
It seems as though Julia Mossbridge might be working on it.
Here's her CV for your perusal.
I'm not familiar with her work. The titles of her publications do not raise any eyebrows.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 234 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 01-08-2006 12:49 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 269 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 01-09-2006 1:05 AM nwr has replied

nwr
Member
Posts: 6409
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 274 of 300 (277413)
01-09-2006 1:36 AM
Reply to: Message 269 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
01-09-2006 1:05 AM


Re: Mind and matter
But the assumption that the impulse overode the "volitional control" part of the brain is what I question.
What is the "volitional control" part of the brain?
You've got me there. I'm a theoretician, not a biologist.
There are areas of the brain that are particularly active during thinking, and these are what I was referring to. But I don't know brain anatomy well enough to identify them.
Our knowledge of how the brain works is far from complete. As far as I know, it is not currently possible to use electrical stimulation to fully control conscious decision making.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 269 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 01-09-2006 1:05 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 275 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 01-09-2006 1:41 AM nwr has replied

nwr
Member
Posts: 6409
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 279 of 300 (277497)
01-09-2006 9:34 AM
Reply to: Message 275 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
01-09-2006 1:41 AM


Re: Mind and matter
It would be interesting to start a new thread where we all pool our resources together to see what information is available.
The field of cognitive science is still in its infancy. Theories of cognition are all over the map, ranging from theories based on quantum gravity, theories based on electromagnetic fields to theories that the brain is a kind of super-computer to theories of biological self-organization.
I'm not convinced that a thread on the topic would be all that informative.
Like I said, the evidence I've seen seems to indicate otherwise.
At present there is no knock down proof that you are wrong. However, most cognitive scientists believe that a fully naturalistic account will be found.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 275 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 01-09-2006 1:41 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has not replied

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024