Man raised back to life in Jesus' name

First, I never claim the story is sufficient for scientific evidence. Secondly, I do think it is perfectly reasonable to believe the woman's testimony. Then again, in my life's experience, such miraculous things are not uncommon.One point in posting this story is to counter the commonly stated belief that miracles are not happening today as in the Bible times. In fact, more miracles seem to be happening today, but of course, just as in the Bible, some will doubt and choose to think somehow people are deluded or lying and whatever. Imo, from what I have seen, some people do fake or misunderstand things but plenty of real miracles occur quite often.

You are an intelligent enough person to see that you are not just attempting to discuss the issue, or you would treat Faith and others a little differently.If you are going to say my comments are like the pot calling the kettle black or some such, I will not defend myself, but still what I say to you above needs to be said.

How about this one? "Official investigations have been carried out with the result that it has been considered an undeniable fact that the Blessed Virgin Mary has been appearing on Zeitun Church in a clear and bright luminous body seen by all present in front of the church, whether Christian or Moslem"Report of General Information and Complaints Department, Zeitun, Egypt 1968

Of course, Egypt being a Moslem nation is particularly eager to reaffirm Christianity.

That's what I thought to. The irony of this event is that for a period of around 3 years Orthodox, Muslims (majority), Catholics & Protestants (minority), Agnostics, and even Athiests reported seeing this event.As another poster on another forum noted: Some have suspected that this could very well be the adversary's counterfeit. However, I don't think this is the case. Mary did not speak, she smiled and waved to everyone, she did on a few occasions bow down in reverence to a cross on the church though.Furthermore, as far as I have investigated it, there was apparently a local resisance of Muslims shortly prior to the apparition's appearance which had certain plans in the works. A few extremist groups within the local Muslim culture were apparently planning some kind of local jihad on certain religious groups, including Christians.When the apparitions began, however, even Muslims were shouting, quoting from the Koran, "Mary, God has chosen thee. And purified thee; He has chosen thee. Above all women." And, it should be noted, the planned local jihad was halted by her appearance, essentially saving the lives of potentially many minority Christians in the area.If this account is true, then it would seem to me that the adversary really messed up by saving the lives of many people, including Christians as well.

Although I absolutely abhor the Catholic heirarchy and the whole papal system, I believe there is some genuine spirituality within the believers in the Roman Catholic church. Sometimes, I think the more Protestant churches have thrown out some genuine things and developed an unnecessary suspicion.I am hesitant to discuss too many personal experiences, but I know that early on in my faith walk, some teaching created an unnecessary, imo, suspicion about such spiritual experiences, some of which I experienced myself. Probably if I was a Catholic, I would say Mary had appeared once to me, but just thought at the time, this is an angel. But because the teaching of the church I was in at the time dismissed the concept of a female angel, I wondered if the enemy had counterfeited something. As I have grown older, I believe very much that was false teaching and the angel or perhaps even Mary was of God. I sometimes wonder if my skeptical response in wondering if it could be an error stopped some of the more closer communion from occuring in fact.

That's something that you will have to look into for yourself randman. I too have had some very interesting "spiritual experiences" over the years. My family seems to be showered with them like rice at a wedding.For the record, I do think there is an energy and vibrancy among protestant groups that I admire very much. If only we could learn from each other. It would be interesting to have an ecumenical thread where Christian's of various backgrounds could discuss their ideas openly and without insult to one another.I sincerely believe that the things that divide us are much less than the Lord that unites us. Someday these divisions will pass and we will all be drinking from the same cup in Christ.

quote:

---

I understand your skepticism,

---

Well, that's a pleasant and welcome change of attitude.I strongly urge you to aquire a bit more skepticism yourself regarding these matters, as you yourself admit that there are couterfeits to the real thing.Don't be so open minded that your brain falls out.Don't be so desperate to see a miracle that you blind yourself to everyone else's desperation to see a miracle.It took me all of 10 minutes of googling to find all of that information on the miracle gold fillings and porcelain crowns. If you had been a little more skeptical, and a little less credulous, and had done a little research yourself, you wouldn't look as, well, gullible as you do right now.

quote:

---

and that as always, there will be counterfeits to the real thing.

---

Well, that's the thing, randman.All of my questioning and probing is an attempt to determine the counterfeits from the real thing.We certainly know that, so far, not a single claim of a miracle, or any supernatural claim for that matter, has withstood a real scientific investigation. Chicanery or just plain old self-delusion has been the source of every investigated claim. Either that, or there is not enough evidence available to make a determination. All that has been provided is hearsay and anecdotes.The "miracle gold fillings" example is perfect. When we investigate further, we find that a pastor who thinks that God has changed one of his fillings to gold was simply self deluded and had, in his intense need to see a miracle in his mouth, completely forgotten that he had had this gold filling for the last 10 years.If he had simply had some skepticism about his own memory and perceptions, and if he was interested in really investigating and knowing the truth, he would have simply rung up his dentist and asked the man about it.This is the typical track record of such claims, and always has been, for hundreds of years.

quote:

---

All I can tell you is the truth on this matter. How you treat that is up to you.

---

I believe you are sincere.However, since you have shown yourself to be largely without skepticism or doubt regarding such claims, I have no idea if your belief is justified. I have no idea if you are believing "the truth" or if you have been fooled.That's why I have been asking for the e-mail address of your friend's dentist.This message has been edited by schrafinator, 01-03-2006 08:53 AM

Shraf, with all due respect, I am not desperate to see a miracle, and in our lives, my wife and I, such miracles are not uncommon. I know you don't buy that, but you have to understand I am not talking about something I have read or seen on the internet but real things that have occurred in my own life and the life of those around me, and yes, at times, instances of friends and acquaintances serving the Lord overseas which in some instances has even more dramatic miracles.A recent example is a group from our church was in India working with a number of orphanages our church and others sponsor. There was a blind man in one village with his eyes not just blind, but messed up in other ways as well. God completely healed the man when a group from our church prayed for him. I personally know the people that were there and have talked with them about it.There were other miracles as well. The blind man literally praised and worshipped God all night long. They say it wasn't just his sight restored, but he had new eyes. You can say, well, I think they are exaggerating or something, but really, such miracles are not all that uncommon.That doesn't mean Christians that believe can just walk into the hospitals and heal everyone, and sometimes God works miracles in response to prayer even when the person or people praying need a miracle themselves, and don't receive it.That's how it was in the Bible, and that's how it is today.I don't know where you live, and I am not going to provide someone's personal info, but I will say there are churches probably around you with such things occuring, and if not, not too far away. I attend a Vineyard church, which in some respects is not my favorite denomination, but if you were to look up some Vineyard churches, and go and talk with them, you could probably find some answers for what you are looking for.Then again, the Vineyard near you may be different, as congregations differ, but I still suspect it would be beneficial for you to investigate a little further for yourself and talk with people with direct experience. If you have a good attitude, people will probably be willing to share with you.This message has been edited by randman, 01-03-2006 10:41 AM

One suspects that a good attitude is to not ask to many questions.RM, we know for a fact that we are all easily fooled; more so if we want a certain thing to be true. We also know for a fact that we don't always(in fact rarely do) remember things as they actually occured. In addtion, we know for a fact that people tend to exaggerate. On occasion some individuals lie.As Schraf notes, when the kind of claims you are making are examined carefully they never stand up. The track record is such that the most reasonable conclusion is that if enough facts are available the story will not be as it first appears to be. It is only when there are not enough varifiable facts available that any question remains.The above two paragraphs are the factual background that applies when we are to examine such claims. What conclusion would anyone draw? Even someone who is sure they have experienced such things when we all know for a fact that we are very easy to fool and be mistaken should approach this with a bit of care. You obviously have no idea about taking such care.I have enjoyed a number of occasions when my own eyes have decieved me. It is an interesting feeling while your head scrambles to sort out what is going on. To jump to an early conclusion is a mistake.

Wrong. You believe that, but in fact, miracles have often been medically documented, but honestly Ned, you guys prove my point. It is useless to argue with someone that does not want to believe.It's not something you are prepared to accept and so you will assume someone must be mistaken, etc,...

All Schraf is asking for is such documentation.Since you don't have any for the examples given perhaps you could pick ones for which there is documentation and refer us to that documentation.

I pointed her in the right direction so she could meet with people and see "documentation" there. Imo, it is a waste of time documentating miracles for those that don't want to believe. Unless they make some effort on their own to search for the truth, then trying to do that for them, in my experience, is not so fruitful.If you have a problem with that, then so be it.

No, they haven't. Popular misconception, though. Like the idea that the police hire psychics, etc.

Funny thing this; a very common reaction when requesting the supposed "documentation". You might simple point to the documentation and/or ask what we might consider appropriate. When we are asked for documentation we offer some 90+ percent of the time. When the not-so-scientific are asked somehow it is too much trouble to point to it or it is not easily available. And then, of course, there are the other cases when references are supplied which do not support the thesis presented.