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Author Topic:   Nature and the fall of man
Brian
Member (Idle past 4977 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 226 of 300 (275263)
01-03-2006 6:40 AM
Reply to: Message 214 by randman
01-03-2006 1:24 AM


Re: Naive view of the Bible?
I will just say that I see almost no intelligent and educated comments in your posts.
That really doesn't surprise me in the least

This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by randman, posted 01-03-2006 1:24 AM randman has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 227 by AdminPD, posted 01-03-2006 7:02 AM Brian has not replied

AdminPD
Inactive Administrator


Message 227 of 300 (275264)
01-03-2006 7:02 AM
Reply to: Message 226 by Brian
01-03-2006 6:40 AM


Derailment Conclusion
Brian's comment should be the last concerning the "Naive view of the Bible" derailment. Please do not continue.
Any comments concerning this post should be directed to the appropriate link listed below.
Thank you

Usually, in a well-conducted debate, speakers are either emotionally uncommitted or can preserve sufficient detachment to maintain a coolly academic approach.-- Encylopedia Brittanica, on debate

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  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 226 by Brian, posted 01-03-2006 6:40 AM Brian has not replied

    LinearAq
    Member (Idle past 4694 days)
    Posts: 598
    From: Pocomoke City, MD
    Joined: 11-03-2004


    Message 228 of 300 (275266)
    01-03-2006 7:12 AM
    Reply to: Message 212 by lfen
    01-03-2006 1:19 AM


    Re: If no Fall
    LA writes:
    Following the YEC premise that God is only good then the bad things in this world are only bad from our point of view
    Ifen writes:
    Okay, but that just shifts the problem a bit.
    Shifts it where? I thought I already put the responsibility on God's shoulders.
    next,Ifen writes:
    ...it seems to me that at least some of the fundamentalist here assert that the God of the bible has set up standards of absolute good. Yet, for example it was good for Joshua and his army to kill the infants of Jericho. Yet killing infants is supposedly wrong.
    The God of any written religion has set up the standards of absolute good. It is just that the standards which show up as rules of behavior apply to mankind and not necessarily to God.
    Deciding on and carrying out the killing of innocents (infants...etc) is wrong for mankind because we don't have the capability to know when that action is good or when it is bad. God, however, knows when the performance of an action, though perceived as bad, is actually good.
    Then, assuming that God is absolutely good, anything he does or allows is absolutely good no matter how it is perceived. An evil act perpetrated by one of us created beings, in violation of the standards that God set, is actually good because God allows it. Therefore, God can condemn the act and possibly the perpetrator while still having the result be "good".
    edited to avoid the grammar monster
    This message has been edited by LinearAq, 01-03-2006 07:13 AM

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 212 by lfen, posted 01-03-2006 1:19 AM lfen has not replied

    robinrohan
    Inactive Member


    Message 229 of 300 (275288)
    01-03-2006 10:40 AM
    Reply to: Message 205 by LinearAq
    01-02-2006 6:36 PM


    God works in mysterious ways
    What we see as a bad thing does not make it an "evil" thing. It could certainly be a good thing from God's perspective.
    From one perspective, the Fall occurred and man brought suffering upon himself. Part of this suffering is caused by this change in Nature, through which, for example, birth defects occur.
    If there was no Fall, then the only way to explain the arbitrary suffering caused by Nature and still maintain the notion of God is to assert, as you are asserting, that we cannot see the whole picture and that what looks like totally unnecessary suffering is really somehow just or good and is not really suffering at all, and that all's right with the world. This is another way of saying that God works in mysterious ways, which explains nothing at all. In that way, ANYTHING can be explained away as our insufficient view of the whole.
    This message has been edited by robinrohan, 01-03-2006 09:41 AM
    This message has been edited by robinrohan, 01-03-2006 09:41 AM

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 205 by LinearAq, posted 01-02-2006 6:36 PM LinearAq has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 230 by LinearAq, posted 01-03-2006 11:57 AM robinrohan has replied

    LinearAq
    Member (Idle past 4694 days)
    Posts: 598
    From: Pocomoke City, MD
    Joined: 11-03-2004


    Message 230 of 300 (275316)
    01-03-2006 11:57 AM
    Reply to: Message 229 by robinrohan
    01-03-2006 10:40 AM


    Re: God works in mysterious ways
    robinrohan writes:
    This is another way of saying that God works in mysterious ways, which explains nothing at all.
    I didn't say that it was a satisfying explanation. If you believe in God, you are always going wind up dealing with this situation, bad things happening. Just because man (Adam) causes the entry of bad things into the creation, does not mean that God is aleiviated of any responsibility. He set it up with the certain knowledge of the outcome.
    Whether or not the Fall is a literal event does not change the fact that God is ultimately responsible for the "bad" things that are happening in His creation.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 229 by robinrohan, posted 01-03-2006 10:40 AM robinrohan has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 231 by Faith, posted 01-03-2006 12:16 PM LinearAq has replied
     Message 232 by robinrohan, posted 01-03-2006 1:10 PM LinearAq has not replied

    Faith 
    Suspended Member (Idle past 1463 days)
    Posts: 35298
    From: Nevada, USA
    Joined: 10-06-2001


    Message 231 of 300 (275332)
    01-03-2006 12:16 PM
    Reply to: Message 230 by LinearAq
    01-03-2006 11:57 AM


    God would be to blame if we were automatons
    Just because man (Adam) causes the entry of bad things into the creation, does not mean that God is aleiviated of any responsibility. He set it up with the certain knowledge of the outcome.
    Whether or not the Fall is a literal event does not change the fact that God is ultimately responsible for the "bad" things that are happening in His creation.
    God warned Adam, and continues in the Bible to warn us. He has also offered a solution to it all for anyone who will take it. Seems to me He's done His part toward us, unless you believe we are automatons who have no choice whatever.
    This message has been edited by Faith, 01-03-2006 12:36 PM

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 230 by LinearAq, posted 01-03-2006 11:57 AM LinearAq has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 235 by LinearAq, posted 01-03-2006 1:47 PM Faith has not replied
     Message 236 by ramoss, posted 01-03-2006 6:48 PM Faith has replied
     Message 239 by Brian, posted 01-03-2006 7:36 PM Faith has not replied

    robinrohan
    Inactive Member


    Message 232 of 300 (275341)
    01-03-2006 1:10 PM
    Reply to: Message 230 by LinearAq
    01-03-2006 11:57 AM


    Re: God works in mysterious ways
    He set it up with the certain knowledge of the outcome.
    I don't think we want to get involved in a discussion about foreknowledge. Assuming freedom of will, the moral status of the Fall is connected to, in Christian terms, the sacrifice of Christ on the cross. You have an entire group--mankind--being punished, and then you have the same entire group having its moral debt paid. After that, the entire group is not judged anymore. Instead, individuals are judged.
    However, having the moral debt of mankind paid by the crucifixion does not restore nature as it was before the Fall. That's a puzzle.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 230 by LinearAq, posted 01-03-2006 11:57 AM LinearAq has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 233 by Faith, posted 01-03-2006 1:18 PM robinrohan has replied

    Faith 
    Suspended Member (Idle past 1463 days)
    Posts: 35298
    From: Nevada, USA
    Joined: 10-06-2001


    Message 233 of 300 (275342)
    01-03-2006 1:18 PM
    Reply to: Message 232 by robinrohan
    01-03-2006 1:10 PM


    Re: God works in mysterious ways
    Assuming freedom of will, the moral status of the Fall is connected to, in Christian terms, the sacrifice of Christ on the cross. You have an entire group--mankind--being punished, and then you have the same entire group having its moral debt paid. After that, the entire group is not judged anymore. Instead, individuals are judged.
    Hm. Unless I'm not getting something here, being a Calvinist I see this differently. "The same entire group," that is, all of mankind, does not have its moral debt paid, only those who believe in Christ who pays it have it paid. And that group is not judged any more.
    However, having the moral debt of mankind paid by the crucifixion does not restore nature as it was before the Fall. That's a puzzle.
    That's what happens on the Second Coming of Christ:
    Romans 8:19-23 19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 232 by robinrohan, posted 01-03-2006 1:10 PM robinrohan has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 234 by robinrohan, posted 01-03-2006 1:41 PM Faith has replied

    robinrohan
    Inactive Member


    Message 234 of 300 (275344)
    01-03-2006 1:41 PM
    Reply to: Message 233 by Faith
    01-03-2006 1:18 PM


    Re: God works in mysterious ways
    "The same entire group," that is, all of mankind, does not have its moral debt paid, only those who believe in Christ who pays it have it paid. And that group is not judged any more.
    What about those who lived between the Fall and the coming of Christ?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 233 by Faith, posted 01-03-2006 1:18 PM Faith has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 241 by Faith, posted 01-04-2006 12:18 AM robinrohan has not replied
     Message 244 by Faith, posted 01-04-2006 1:39 AM robinrohan has replied

    LinearAq
    Member (Idle past 4694 days)
    Posts: 598
    From: Pocomoke City, MD
    Joined: 11-03-2004


    Message 235 of 300 (275346)
    01-03-2006 1:47 PM
    Reply to: Message 231 by Faith
    01-03-2006 12:16 PM


    Re: God works in mysterious ways
    Faith writes:
    Seems to me He's done His part toward us, unless you believe we are automatons who have no choice whatever.
    I'm not saying that we have no choice, but God knew what would happen, yet did nothing about it. He obviously felt that things needed to happen the way they did.
    Simple example: You have the absolute ability, without endangering yourself or anyone else, to stop a murderer from killing a child yet you sit back and watch him do it. Are you responsible for the death of that child? I would say that you were.
    There is nothing wrong with God being responsible as long as we assume He is absolutely good and knows what the best course of action (or inaction) is.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 231 by Faith, posted 01-03-2006 12:16 PM Faith has not replied

    ramoss
    Member (Idle past 630 days)
    Posts: 3228
    Joined: 08-11-2004


    Message 236 of 300 (275477)
    01-03-2006 6:48 PM
    Reply to: Message 231 by Faith
    01-03-2006 12:16 PM


    Re: God would be to blame if we were automatons
    One thing that you have not dealt with is that in your world view, god not only warned Adam, but designed adam, and knew adam would 'fall' before he even was created.
    So, why did God purposely create a flawed creation that would 'fall'?
    Surely, if God KNEW before he created Adam that Adam would make a bad choice, he could have created him to be able to make a better choice to begin with?
    Or didn't God have the ability to make a man that would Choose to do good and not fall from the begining?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 231 by Faith, posted 01-03-2006 12:16 PM Faith has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 237 by Faith, posted 01-03-2006 7:29 PM ramoss has replied

    Faith 
    Suspended Member (Idle past 1463 days)
    Posts: 35298
    From: Nevada, USA
    Joined: 10-06-2001


    Message 237 of 300 (275487)
    01-03-2006 7:29 PM
    Reply to: Message 236 by ramoss
    01-03-2006 6:48 PM


    Re: God would be to blame if we were automatons
    The creation wasn't flawed. The Fall is the natural result of the gift of free will. The choice seems to be between a human being with the free will to fall or so predetermined that he can't fall, that is, an automaton. If you want an independent will in your creature you risk the fall. Of course God knew they would fall, but He had to have determined that it was worth it. I don't think we'll be in a position to see how completely worth it it was until it's all over.
    This message has been edited by Faith, 01-03-2006 07:31 PM

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 236 by ramoss, posted 01-03-2006 6:48 PM ramoss has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 238 by ramoss, posted 01-03-2006 7:32 PM Faith has replied
     Message 240 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 01-03-2006 11:32 PM Faith has not replied

    ramoss
    Member (Idle past 630 days)
    Posts: 3228
    Joined: 08-11-2004


    Message 238 of 300 (275488)
    01-03-2006 7:32 PM
    Reply to: Message 237 by Faith
    01-03-2006 7:29 PM


    Re: God would be to blame if we were automatons
    If 'creation' wasn't flawed, why did man fall? You can't have creation perfect, with God knowing the results of his creation before he acted on creation, and have a fall that was not planned by God.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 237 by Faith, posted 01-03-2006 7:29 PM Faith has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 242 by Faith, posted 01-04-2006 12:48 AM ramoss has replied

    Brian
    Member (Idle past 4977 days)
    Posts: 4659
    From: Scotland
    Joined: 10-22-2002


    Message 239 of 300 (275489)
    01-03-2006 7:36 PM
    Reply to: Message 231 by Faith
    01-03-2006 12:16 PM


    Re: God would be to blame if we were automatons
    Interesting subtitle because automatons are exactly what fundamentalist preachers would like us all to be!
    However, the Bible states quite explicitly, several times, that creation wasn't perfect, so no big deal.
    Brian.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 231 by Faith, posted 01-03-2006 12:16 PM Faith has not replied

    Mr. Ex Nihilo
    Member (Idle past 1355 days)
    Posts: 712
    Joined: 04-12-2005


    Message 240 of 300 (275549)
    01-03-2006 11:32 PM
    Reply to: Message 237 by Faith
    01-03-2006 7:29 PM


    Re: God would be to blame if we were automatons
    My own thoughts were that God created Adam and Eve with the default position of being led by the Spirit -- essentially trusting God. Therefore, if they only trusted God's words, they would continue to move in the default motion according to God's will.
    Even so, even if this is the case, it seems to me that they wouldn't be "automations" simply because they were led by the Spirit. Within the parameters of their actions they could still make many different choices, each guided by the Spirit's motion -- such as loving each other, eating food, partaking in fellowship with one another, etc.
    In this sense, I'm not trying to suggest that Adam and Eve had no choices laid out before them. They could certainly choose from a variety of different paths all guided by the Spirit -- such as being a shepherd, or some kind of agricultural work, or even perhaps some kind of crastman, etc.
    In other words, as the Scriptures quite plainly states, whatever you do, do it for the Lord. It comes by his Spirit
    What would be restricted from their "default actions" would be anything which essentially broke the laws written upon the hearts of all people -- the commandments against lying, stealing or coveting for example.
    So, to clarify this example, if one were to be a shepherd, that's a fine choice according to the freedom they have within the Spirit's motion -- they just wouldn't break the commandments when being a shepherd because that would go against the Spirit's motion.
    As a default motion in the Spirit, so long as they trusted God, they would effectively continue to move in God's Spirit no matter what actions they might choose to do.
    That they were not automations seems to be fairly evident by the fact that they could apparently choose to not obey the Spirit at any given time -- effectively falling out of God's grace. In fact, in my own opinion anyway, it seems to me that Adam and Eve had already sinned well before they ever partook in the tree of the knowlege of good and evil.
    Many people have speculated as to the reasons why God would have left Adam and Eve alone in the Garden. They think, "Why on earth would God leave them alone with the serpent?"
    However, I would like to point out that, according to the Scriptures, God's eyes are apparently too pure to look on evil; he apparently cannot tolerate wrong. If he left, it seems to me that it was because Adam and Eve were already coveting the tree of the knowledge of good and evil well before they ate from it.
    Isaiah 59:2 planely states, "But your iniquities have separated you from your God; your sins have hidden his face from you, so that he will not hear."
    It seems resonable to me that God left Adam and Eve because iniquity was already found within them -- and since God cannot tolerate this his Spirit left their presence. In short, their iniquities had effectively separated them from God -- and they were no longer moving by God's Spirit during this time.
    Many people have speculated at the meaning as to exactly what the tree of knowledge represented. For me the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is actually symbolic of the serpent that was "guarding" the tree. However, instead of "knowledge" I would prefer to use the word "experience".
    In other words, the tree of the knowledge of good and evil might be better translated as the tree of experiencing good and evil -- with one half of the experience being something that they had formerly "known" about by the natural world around them but had not directly "experienced" in their own lives.
    It's kind of like, in my opinion, watching children tragically starving on a Worldvision commercial -- but not having ever really known was it was like to actually be starving for food in real life. In other words, it seems to me that they were very much aware of the "knowledge" that things could go wrong around them -- and were very aware that this could happen to themselves -- but they never directly "experienced" the bad things they knew of.
    In this sense, it seems to me that God allowed them just enough knowledge to know what could go wrong without them having to directly suffer the consequences of doing wrong themselves.
    Or, in other words, it seems to me that it was a matter of trusting what God said over what they were tempting themselves to do.
    If they simply continued to trust God (the default position), then they would be moved by the Spirit to immediately partake in the tree of life before the temptation to eat from the tree of "experiencing" good and evil took over. In short, they would have passed the test -- and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil would have been cut off from therein.
    If, however, they failed to trust God (the alternative position), then they would be moved by their own spirit (breaking the Spirit's motion within them) to eventually partake in the tree of "experiencing" good and evil before the Spirit's motion to eat from the tree of life was completed in them. In short, they would have failed the test, effectively cutting themselves off from the tree of life -- and according to the Scriptures, they did.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 237 by Faith, posted 01-03-2006 7:29 PM Faith has not replied

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