Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
5 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,815 Year: 3,072/9,624 Month: 917/1,588 Week: 100/223 Day: 11/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Death before the 'Fall'?
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 46 of 230 (274851)
01-01-2006 11:18 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by randman
01-01-2006 4:47 PM


Re: A few scripture references
randman writes:
quote:
Adam immediately spiritually died as was indicated by his awareness of his sin (nakedness)
This is another one of those things that makes absolutely no sense.
Don't you think that the very first thought Adam and Eve would have had upon eating from the tree of knowledge and becoming as gods would have been, "Oh, no! We just disobeyed god!" There was only one command they were given: Don't eat from that tree. And they did. Shouldn't that be the big thing weighing on their souls?
What does nakedness have to do with anything? They've been naked all their lives and god never seemed to mind. The only thing that has changed is that they disobeyed god and understand what that disobeyance means.
quote:
So it sure seems the text indicates spiritual death preceded natural death.
But that isn't what god told Adam. He told him that if he ate from the tree of knowledge, he would die a physical death before the sun set.
Instead, Adam (at least) lived for nearly 1000 years more.

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by randman, posted 01-01-2006 4:47 PM randman has not replied

  
Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 1337 days)
Posts: 712
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 47 of 230 (274871)
01-02-2006 12:00 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by Rrhain
01-01-2006 10:56 PM


Re: Only after the Fall
Rrhain writes:
And where does one find this in the story? I see no passage anywhere in the story that indicates that Adam was actually immortal. Instead, there's continual talk of the possibility of Adam dying.
Although I don't subscribe to this view, apparently many Christians feel that Adam being both a) made in the image of God and b) having his soul breathed into being by God's Spirit -- necessarilly received "immortality" by token of his ancestry from the "immortal God" who made him. And to be honest I can think of no other creature in the Genesis account which is depicted as having such a close filial relationship with God.
Although I personally don't subscribe to this view, I am willing to admit that this "immortal" link from God to Adam can be inferred based on such reasoning. For example, although this possibility is not explicitly stated in the Genesis account, many Christians do feel that passages such as Luke 3:38 do indicate this link:
Luke 3:38 writes:
...the son of Kenan, the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.
In order for Christ to be the Second Adam, Adam seems to have been the first "Son of God" so to speak. But after the fall, Adam apparently looses his heirship to Abba the Father -- therefore implying a loss of his "immortality".
Like I said before, I don't subscribe to this view. But I can see where others would come to this conclusion. I don't think Brian is just reading something that isn't implied in the text. And as a non-Christian I don't think he rising to the occasion to defend a conservative evangelical interpretation of Scriptures. He seems to be simply fairly presenting other possible interpetations.
The question becomes more of what would be the most accurate way to inrerpret the data available. To me it seems more logical that, even despite his close relationship with God, Adam was nonetheless made mortal and was dependent upon God for his sustenance via the tree of life.
This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 01-02-2006 12:07 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Rrhain, posted 01-01-2006 10:56 PM Rrhain has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 48 of 230 (274958)
01-02-2006 9:00 AM


There are three states for Adam in Genesis.
State #1 - Adam is created neutral between two trees.
State #2 - Adam after having eaten the tree of life.
State #3 - Adam after having eaten the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
I submit that State #1 certainly can be compounded with either State #2 or State # 3. But it cannot be compounded with both #2 and #3 at the same time. That was forbidden by God.
Let me abbreviate these states #1 CRE, #2 TOL, #3 TOKGE
What we are told is that Adam in state CRE takes in as food TOKGE. He combines CRE state with TOKGE state. God's reaction is that Adam is then forbidden to move into TOL state. He is driven from the garden and he is to die.
We are not told whether not he previously had moved into TOL state. But it is certain that God forbids Adam to move from TOKGE to TOL because the effect of TOL will be to preserve Adam alive forever.
I submit that this proves that under any circumstances God forbade that TOL state and TOKGE state be compounded together. I think that CRE must move from his neutral position to EITHER TOKGE or TOL. He cannot have both.
CRE state and TOL state are positive. There is no problem with those two states. But TOKGE state is definitely against the will of God. Once Adam has taken TOKGE he is at odds against God and God will not permit him to be in that state forever. So though CRE and TOKGE have been compounded God will not allow Adam to also move into the state of TOL.
Now there is another important piece of information to me. Adam is warned that moving into TOKGE will cause him to die. He is not told that failure to eat TOL will cause him to die. He is not warned that any other matter will cause him to die.
My opinion is that Adam had a life which God would have maintained to live on everlastingly which was quite apart from TOL.
If that is true then TOL must represent something else besides simple human immortality. It may include human immortality. But it has to represent something more than mere human immortality.
With the aid of the rest of the Bible, especially the New Testament I think that the TOL represents the life of God Himself. God wanted to compound Adam's life with His own life. This is the compounding of the created human life with the uncreated divine life of God.
Where do we see the created human life compounded with the uncreated divine life of God? We see it in the man Jesus Christ. In the New Testament Jesus Chirst is the compounding of the life of God with the life of humanity into one entity - a God - Man.
There is no difficulty at all in seeing that God's eternal purpose was to have sons of God with His life and His nature.
I covered many of these matters in the thread the Tree of Life as the Life of God. But it seemed OK to place these thoughts here too.
The bottom line in this for me is that God's intention is not merely that man live an everlasting life. God's intention is that man live a life united, compounded, mingled, and mutually interwoven with God's life so that man is a God-Man.
This message has been edited by jaywill, 01-02-2006 09:01 AM
This message has been edited by jaywill, 01-02-2006 09:02 AM
This message has been edited by jaywill, 01-02-2006 09:32 AM

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by ramoss, posted 01-02-2006 6:31 PM jaywill has replied
 Message 53 by AdminPD, posted 01-03-2006 6:33 AM jaywill has not replied

  
ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 49 of 230 (275109)
01-02-2006 6:31 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by jaywill
01-02-2006 9:00 AM


Where does it say that Adam EVER ate from the tree of life?
He got kicked out LEAST he eat from the tree of life.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by jaywill, posted 01-02-2006 9:00 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by jaywill, posted 01-02-2006 6:41 PM ramoss has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 50 of 230 (275112)
01-02-2006 6:41 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by ramoss
01-02-2006 6:31 PM


Ramoss,
Where does it say that Adam EVER ate from the tree of life?
He got kicked out LEAST he eat from the tree of life.
Could you please quote the post I wrote and point out exactly what sentence/s gave rise to this question of yours?
Thanks
This message has been edited by jaywill, 01-02-2006 06:42 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by ramoss, posted 01-02-2006 6:31 PM ramoss has not replied

  
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4899 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 51 of 230 (275218)
01-03-2006 1:10 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by Rrhain
01-01-2006 11:13 PM


Re: Death before the fall...
You insist that the text says they are carnivores. The text does not. The fact that lions are carnivores today means nothing.
We were also herbivores turned to carnivores. So your logic does not fit the text. Observed conditions today cannot be considered to be what conditions were like before the Fall.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Rrhain, posted 01-01-2006 11:13 PM Rrhain has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by lfen, posted 01-03-2006 4:36 AM randman has replied

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4677 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 52 of 230 (275255)
01-03-2006 4:36 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by randman
01-03-2006 1:10 AM


Re: Death before the fall...
Human dentation and guts make us capable of being omnivorous but our molars and long guts point to the greater role of plant food in our diets.
You are saying that there were once herbivore lions. They had teeth capable of grinding plant food and long intestines to help digest the plant food?
All carnivores evolved tearing teeth and the shorter guts adapted to a diet of flesh and they did this in the few thousand years stipulated in your beliefs since the Fall was supposed to take place?
Or are you asserting God instanteously changed or created a select group of herbivores, changed their genes, and their jaws, teeth, guts, digestive enzymes etc?
There is no room for science or evidence in your beliefs. A universe with events like that which are not registered in any independent evidence but are only a story in a book is imaginary. Imagination is very powerful and sometimes preferrable to the world we know and discover. That your fantasy gives your life meaning is well and good but why are you attempting to falsify evidence to preserve fantasy world? Why not just go your way and say perhaps God created the universe the way he did to fool scientists into believing physics, chemistry, geology, biology operates by the principles observed, when really those principle were cooked up to hide that fact that the Bible is the only truth and that truth faith allows one to disregard reason and evidence and laugh at the poor fools who take the universe at face value. God's joke is on them. He changed the universe in such a way that science seems to work, but the real truth is the story told by all the ancients passed down in the middle east until this very day.
Wonderous! We don't need dentists when prayer creates miraculous fillings. We don't need medicine when prayer will heal. We don't need agriculture when faith will multiply fishes. We don't need airplanes we can fly on dragons and pegasuses. We don't need to mine gold when we can spin it from flax. And on and on. Imagination is a wonderful thing especially when it's used irresponsibly.
Is there any nonsense you are not willing to believe?
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by randman, posted 01-03-2006 1:10 AM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by jaywill, posted 01-03-2006 7:05 AM lfen has not replied
 Message 55 by jaywill, posted 01-03-2006 7:25 AM lfen has not replied
 Message 57 by randman, posted 01-03-2006 10:13 AM lfen has not replied
 Message 59 by Admin, posted 01-03-2006 10:55 AM lfen has replied

  
AdminPD
Inactive Administrator


Message 53 of 230 (275261)
01-03-2006 6:33 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by jaywill
01-02-2006 9:00 AM


Caution!
jaywill,
Caution Your post does not really address or provide what the OP is requesting.
The OP
I'd like to see some biblical texts that support the idea of no death before the Fall
Since you have a thread concerning the Tree of Life, I don't feel those thoughts are appropriate for this thread. A discussion on the Tree of Life would take this thread off topic.
Please do not continue this line of discussion unless you can meet the needs of the OP.
Any comments concerning this post should be directed to the appropriate link listed below.
Thank you Purple

Usually, in a well-conducted debate, speakers are either emotionally uncommitted or can preserve sufficient detachment to maintain a coolly academic approach.-- Encylopedia Brittanica, on debate

Comments on moderation procedures (or wish to respond to admin messages)? - Go to:
  • General discussion of moderation procedures
  • Thread Reopen Requests
  • Considerations of topic promotions from the "Proposed New Topics" forum
    New Members: to get an understanding of what makes great posts, check out:
  • "Post of the Month" Forum
  • "Columnist's Corner" Forum
    See also Forum Guidelines, Style Guides for EvC, and Assistance w/ Forum Formatting


  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 48 by jaywill, posted 01-02-2006 9:00 AM jaywill has not replied

      
    jaywill
    Member (Idle past 1941 days)
    Posts: 4519
    From: VA USA
    Joined: 12-05-2005


    Message 54 of 230 (275265)
    01-03-2006 7:05 AM
    Reply to: Message 52 by lfen
    01-03-2006 4:36 AM


    Re: Death before the fall...
    lfen,
    Or are you asserting God instanteously changed or created a select group of herbivores, changed their genes, and their jaws, teeth, guts, digestive enzymes etc?
    There is no room for science or evidence in your beliefs.
    Hey, could have been a sudden change (relatively).
    What happened to "punctuated equilibrium?" I thought that was a relatively abrupt change in the evolutionary scheme.
    It could have been a sudden change.
    This message has been edited by jaywill, 01-03-2006 07:05 AM

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 52 by lfen, posted 01-03-2006 4:36 AM lfen has not replied

      
    jaywill
    Member (Idle past 1941 days)
    Posts: 4519
    From: VA USA
    Joined: 12-05-2005


    Message 55 of 230 (275267)
    01-03-2006 7:25 AM
    Reply to: Message 52 by lfen
    01-03-2006 4:36 AM


    Re: Death before the fall...
    lfen,
    Why not just go your way and say perhaps God created the universe the way he did to fool scientists into believing physics, chemistry, geology, biology operates by the principles observed,
    I'm suppose to stay on the subject matter.
    But you have to know that advances in these fields have had contributions from theists also.
    You have to know that Newton and Pasteur (spelling?) weren't stopped by belief in God. I'm pretty sure G.W. Carver who showed how many things could be done with a peanut was a theist.
    I don't think God is out to fool anyone. I don't think He is out to stop you from researching. In fact I think at times God actually puts His blessing on science research.
    when really those principle were cooked up to hide that fact that the Bible is the only truth and that truth faith allows one to disregard reason and evidence and laugh at the poor fools who take the universe at face value. God's joke is on them. He changed the universe in such a way that science seems to work, but the real truth is the story told by all the ancients passed down in the middle east until this very day.
    If one takes into account what God's revelation has said in the course of study then there is absolutely no reason to think God is out to fool a person.
    If you start with the attitude that the revelation is not to be taken seriously, then you may incorrectly charge the believer that God is out to fool all the scientists. But if something was said in the revelation telling us what happened then there is no deception.
    Wonderous! We don't need dentists when prayer creates miraculous fillings.
    I'm supppose to stay on subject.
    But you don't discard all medicene because of what some qwacks
    have done selling miracle snake oil. So is it fair for you to use a few fake faith healers as grounds to discard all biblical revelation?
    We don't need medicine when prayer will heal.
    Luke was a physician. And he wrote the Gospel of Luke and accompanied Paul also writing the book of Acts in the New Testament.
    If God thought that we did not need physicians then it is curious to me why He chose one to write so much of the New Testament.
    We don't need agriculture when faith will multiply fishes.
    I think we need both. There is nothing wrong with the hard working farmer who is also a man or woman of prayer.
    Some of the prophets were farmers. David herded sheep. Peter and John were fishermen. Paul made tents to support himself and his coworkers.
    Wait a minute here. Are you being a little too knee jerk in your bias?
    Imagination is a wonderful thing especially when it's used irresponsibly.
    Sometimes scientist come up with absurd nonsense.
    Is there any nonsense you are not willing to believe?
    It is difficult to discard the Bible for me, mainly because the impact of the personality of Jesus Christ on human history is as powerful as it is.
    But the subject here is death before the first man in the Bible Adam, so I will leave off additional responses to your post before I have to be reminded again.
    This message has been edited by jaywill, 01-03-2006 07:27 AM
    This message has been edited by jaywill, 01-03-2006 07:28 AM
    This message has been edited by jaywill, 01-03-2006 07:31 AM

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 52 by lfen, posted 01-03-2006 4:36 AM lfen has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 58 by randman, posted 01-03-2006 10:16 AM jaywill has not replied

      
    jaywill
    Member (Idle past 1941 days)
    Posts: 4519
    From: VA USA
    Joined: 12-05-2005


    Message 56 of 230 (275269)
    01-03-2006 7:52 AM


    Concerning the initial question, I agree that there was death on the earth before the creation and death of Adam.
    So I have no passages to demonstrate what the originator requests. I agree with the poster on that point.
    However, I believe that Adam was the first man, the first human being. And that Adam opened the door of the world commited to him, to sin and death.
    Obviously something evil was lurking just outside the door trying to corrupt the world put under Adam's deputy authority.
    I am not sure that it is necessary to believe that ADAM saw death in order to be warned about it. I think that Adam may have witnessed God bring some animals to being from the dust and he could understand that returning to the dust was death and not desireable.
    Perhaps, the poster does have a point. I'm pondering the matter. But the most intelligent human ever created may have understood something about death without having witnessed it.
    I'm not sure yet. Perhaps I will not be sure either way for a long time:
    "The things that are hidden belong to Jehovah our God; but the things that are revealed, to us and our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law" (Deuteronomy 29:29)

      
    randman 
    Suspended Member (Idle past 4899 days)
    Posts: 6367
    Joined: 05-26-2005


    Message 57 of 230 (275283)
    01-03-2006 10:13 AM
    Reply to: Message 52 by lfen
    01-03-2006 4:36 AM


    Re: Death before the fall...
    Since you rule out certain possibilities a priori, there is nothing to discuss with you. Your ramblings on imaginations are mere barely disguised insults devoid of any factual or substantive argument.
    If you want to troll, do so with someone else.
    This message has been edited by randman, 01-03-2006 10:17 AM

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 52 by lfen, posted 01-03-2006 4:36 AM lfen has not replied

      
    randman 
    Suspended Member (Idle past 4899 days)
    Posts: 6367
    Joined: 05-26-2005


    Message 58 of 230 (275284)
    01-03-2006 10:16 AM
    Reply to: Message 55 by jaywill
    01-03-2006 7:25 AM


    Re: Death before the fall...
    lfen's post is so derogatory, so completely devoid of any real argument, and completely and wholly dodging the issues on this thread, he should probably be avoided for just being a troll, jaywill.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 55 by jaywill, posted 01-03-2006 7:25 AM jaywill has not replied

      
    Admin
    Director
    Posts: 12998
    From: EvC Forum
    Joined: 06-14-2002
    Member Rating: 2.3


    Message 59 of 230 (275290)
    01-03-2006 10:55 AM
    Reply to: Message 52 by lfen
    01-03-2006 4:36 AM


    Re: Death before the fall...
    The intention of the Bible Study forum are exegeses on meaning, interpretation and theology aside from and independent of any concerns about scientific considerations.

    --Percy
    EvC Forum Director

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 52 by lfen, posted 01-03-2006 4:36 AM lfen has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 60 by lfen, posted 01-03-2006 12:50 PM Admin has not replied

      
    lfen
    Member (Idle past 4677 days)
    Posts: 2189
    From: Oregon
    Joined: 06-24-2004


    Message 60 of 230 (275337)
    01-03-2006 12:50 PM
    Reply to: Message 59 by Admin
    01-03-2006 10:55 AM


    Re: Death before the fall...
    The intention of the Bible Study forum are exegeses on meaning, interpretation and theology aside from and independent of any concerns about scientific considerations.
    I wasn't clear on that. I withdraw my objection to the notion that it makes any sense to assert lions could be herbivorous.
    lfen

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 59 by Admin, posted 01-03-2006 10:55 AM Admin has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 61 by jaywill, posted 01-03-2006 1:47 PM lfen has not replied

      
    Newer Topic | Older Topic
    Jump to:


    Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

    ™ Version 4.2
    Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024