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Author Topic:   Nature and the fall of man
Faith 
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Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 225 of 300 (275251)
01-03-2006 3:31 AM
Reply to: Message 220 by crashfrog
01-03-2006 2:05 AM


Re: If no Fall
Can you give an example of this -- completely outside the usual topics here of course.
You, of course. You told me about how you thought it was all nonsense, but clearly you found value in it, reassurance, because you kept thinking about it.
And sure enough, after a little bit of time, you came to believe that it was true, as well. Assurance came first; truth second.
First this is not outside the usual topics that are discussed here, it IS the topic that is usually discussed here. You said it's a common phenomenon, so I'd like to hear about the many ways you know about that demonstrate this.
As for my own experience I'd never describe it in such terms. I never used the term reassurance or any related term here I'm quite sure. Don't know how you read it that way. I absolutely immediately irrevocably believed in the existence of God, and did a ton of reading to find out who He is and which religion I wanted to follow, and a couple years later I determined that I was a Christian. It was all about truth, not reassurance. I avidly pursued God, a generic God at first, not the Christian God, just God. No notions of salvation at that point at all. Merely smitten with God, the idea of God, wanting to know Him.
I would say that anyone who appears to believe for the sake of reassurance simply doesn't really believe, and as soon as some test of belief comes along, something that makes it not so reassuring but hard work or painful to believe, this will be exposed.
So, nobody can ever change their beliefs? If their beliefs ever change, it's because they didn't really believe what they used to believe?
Not sure that's the same kind of situation I'm talking about. But if you mean having faith attacked by rationalism then I suppose it is the same situation, yes, as genuine faith doesn't yield to that; but I was thinking more of persecution of various sorts.
How do you discern the difference between the fake beliefs you hold at this point in time and the real beliefs that you'll eventually believe in and never change?
I don't know.
No Muslim who converts to Christ, for instance, believes for the sake of reassurance, because the immediate consequence is to put his life in jeopardy, at least his membership in his family and every kind of security. He has to REALLY believe in order to face that inevitable reality.
And yet, he wouldn't have converted to Christianity if Islam had been reassuring to him, so clearly he's already getting reassurance from Christianity.
It certainly IS reassuring, but he couldn't possibly have the courage to believe it under those circumstance if he weren't first absolutely certain of its truth.
It's always about reassurance, as the believers on your side constantly remind atheis
I'm not one who does that, but maybe I haven't paid enough attention to that approach.
This message has been edited by Faith, 01-03-2006 03:32 AM
This message has been edited by Faith, 01-03-2006 03:47 AM

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 231 of 300 (275332)
01-03-2006 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 230 by LinearAq
01-03-2006 11:57 AM


God would be to blame if we were automatons
Just because man (Adam) causes the entry of bad things into the creation, does not mean that God is aleiviated of any responsibility. He set it up with the certain knowledge of the outcome.
Whether or not the Fall is a literal event does not change the fact that God is ultimately responsible for the "bad" things that are happening in His creation.
God warned Adam, and continues in the Bible to warn us. He has also offered a solution to it all for anyone who will take it. Seems to me He's done His part toward us, unless you believe we are automatons who have no choice whatever.
This message has been edited by Faith, 01-03-2006 12:36 PM

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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 Message 236 by ramoss, posted 01-03-2006 6:48 PM Faith has replied
 Message 239 by Brian, posted 01-03-2006 7:36 PM Faith has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 233 of 300 (275342)
01-03-2006 1:18 PM
Reply to: Message 232 by robinrohan
01-03-2006 1:10 PM


Re: God works in mysterious ways
Assuming freedom of will, the moral status of the Fall is connected to, in Christian terms, the sacrifice of Christ on the cross. You have an entire group--mankind--being punished, and then you have the same entire group having its moral debt paid. After that, the entire group is not judged anymore. Instead, individuals are judged.
Hm. Unless I'm not getting something here, being a Calvinist I see this differently. "The same entire group," that is, all of mankind, does not have its moral debt paid, only those who believe in Christ who pays it have it paid. And that group is not judged any more.
However, having the moral debt of mankind paid by the crucifixion does not restore nature as it was before the Fall. That's a puzzle.
That's what happens on the Second Coming of Christ:
Romans 8:19-23 19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.

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 Message 232 by robinrohan, posted 01-03-2006 1:10 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 237 of 300 (275487)
01-03-2006 7:29 PM
Reply to: Message 236 by ramoss
01-03-2006 6:48 PM


Re: God would be to blame if we were automatons
The creation wasn't flawed. The Fall is the natural result of the gift of free will. The choice seems to be between a human being with the free will to fall or so predetermined that he can't fall, that is, an automaton. If you want an independent will in your creature you risk the fall. Of course God knew they would fall, but He had to have determined that it was worth it. I don't think we'll be in a position to see how completely worth it it was until it's all over.
This message has been edited by Faith, 01-03-2006 07:31 PM

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 Message 236 by ramoss, posted 01-03-2006 6:48 PM ramoss has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 238 by ramoss, posted 01-03-2006 7:32 PM Faith has replied
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 241 of 300 (275569)
01-04-2006 12:18 AM
Reply to: Message 234 by robinrohan
01-03-2006 1:41 PM


Re: God works in mysterious ways
"The same entire group," that is, all of mankind, does not have its moral debt paid, only those who believe in Christ who pays it have it paid. And that group is not judged any more.
What about those who lived between the Fall and the coming of Christ?
They had the promise of the Redeemer/Messiah who would some day come, from all the way back in Eden, and those who believed the promise were certainly saved. Job, who is supposed to have lived at the time of Abraham, but outside the Abrahamic Covenant, recognized that his Redeemer "lives" amd would "one day stand upon the earth," indicating that the memory of the promise from Eden was still strong in people's minds. Abraham and his descendants certainly believed the promise of the Messiah to come (he is foreshadowed in the substitution of the ram for the sacrifice of Isaac for instance). Trusting God, obeying God (they all performed animal sacrifices), loving God, believing His promises, however shadowily understood, saved people both in and outside the Abrahamic Covenant, even the Noachic Covenant. This is exemplified in all the holy men of the Bible. The coming of the Messiah made it all a perfect reality, which before had been "types and shadows," and now our belief must be specific to Him.
I'm sure all this is in the Westminster Catechism. I guess I need to study it.
{Oh, and Jesus Himself preached to all the spirits of the dead too, so they had a direct opportunity to believe. I suppose that included the Buddha and other great sages outside Biblical tradition. It will be fascinating to see who accepted the preaching and who didn't)
This message has been edited by Faith, 01-04-2006 12:22 AM
This message has been edited by Faith, 01-04-2006 12:24 AM

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 242 of 300 (275582)
01-04-2006 12:48 AM
Reply to: Message 238 by ramoss
01-03-2006 7:32 PM


Re: God would be to blame if we were automatons
If 'creation' wasn't flawed, why did man fall? You can't have creation perfect, with God knowing the results of his creation before he acted on creation, and have a fall that was not planned by God.
Don't think that's true. Adam and Eve were perfect creatures, and perfectly innocent. The CAPACITY to fall is simply their free will to choose against God, as the majority of the human race has done ever since. You wouldn't consider the inability to choose against God perfection would you? So their free will is definitely perfection even though their exercising it against God brings awful consequences.
This message has been edited by Faith, 01-04-2006 12:48 AM

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 243 by lfen, posted 01-04-2006 1:02 AM Faith has replied
 Message 247 by ramoss, posted 01-04-2006 10:03 AM Faith has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 244 of 300 (275601)
01-04-2006 1:39 AM
Reply to: Message 234 by robinrohan
01-03-2006 1:41 PM


Re: God works in mysterious ways
What about those who lived between the Fall and the coming of Christ?
I've been reading through the Westminster Catechism for its statements on some of the questions that have been coming up tonight, and found these in answer to your question
quote:
Question 33
Was the covenant of grace always administered after one and the same manner?
Answer 33
The covenant of grace was not always administered after the same manner, but the administrations of it under the Old Testament were different from those under the New.
Question 34
How was the covenant of grace administered under the Old Testament?
Answer 34
The covenant of grace was administered under the Old Testament, by promises, prophecies, sacrifices, circumcision, the passover, and other types and ordinances, which did all foresignify Christ then to come, and were for that time sufficient to build up the elect in faith in the promised Messiah, by whom they then had full remission of sin, and eternal salvation.
Question 35
How is the covenant of grace administered under the New Testament?
Answer 35
Under the New Testament, when Christ the substance was exhibited, the same covenant of grace was and still is to be administered in the preaching of the Word, and the administration of the sacraments of Baptism and the Lord's Supper; in which grace and salvation are held forth in more fulness, evidence, and efficacy, to all nations.

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Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 245 of 300 (275603)
01-04-2006 2:13 AM
Reply to: Message 243 by lfen
01-04-2006 1:02 AM


Re: God would be to blame if we were automatons
Have you a succinct statement, yours, or from a source you approve of that defines this choice? What you, or fundamentalist Christians mean by choosing for or against God?
I think this may be a key issue in understanding why it appears to me anyway that most Christians deny the validity of other religions, for example Hinduism, but it could be other religions, whose adherents believe in God and are devout but have different sacred texts or traditions.
The main answer to why this is so is that God has revealed Himself in one particular way to humanity, through the fathers and prophets of Israel recorded in the Bible, and in no other way. The Bible IS the revelation of God. He has explained His will there, His law, His plan, His nature, to the extent He decided appropriate, and among His revelations is the fact that all other religion is man-made and some directly Satan-inspired. All this is a consequence of the victory of Satan in seducing our first parents away from God and the loss of spiritual connection to God ever since. So, all attempts to reach God are corrupted, starting with Cain's unworthy offering, through the tower of Babel, through the idol-worshipers and human sacrificers, on down to the imitators of monotheism. Many tribal religions are direct demon-worship or demon placation. Only what God Himself has revealed is valid and safe.
Did Gautama Buddha receive the gospel of Christ when it was preached to him by Christ Himself in the place of the dead? Lao Tzu? Zoroaster? Socrates? Plato? Unknown followers of theirs? I'd like to think so but I won't know until Judgment Day. But since Christ, wherever Christ is known, all other religions are directly against Christ.
This message has been edited by Faith, 01-04-2006 04:56 PM

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 248 of 300 (275740)
01-04-2006 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 246 by robinrohan
01-04-2006 7:29 AM


Re: the Gentiles
This sounds like the covenant of grace was administered to the Jews. What about the Gentiles?
Good question. I'm surprised the WC doesn't discuss post-Flood Gentiles like Job or the pre-Flood patriarchs who obviously served God. I don't know more than what I said in my first post to you on this. They lived righteous lives, performed sacrifices and expected the Messiah, though they didn't have the other ordinances God gave the Israelites. Whether this can be called in any sense a version of The Covenant of Grace I don't know. Maybe another dispensation altogether.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 249 of 300 (275743)
01-04-2006 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 247 by ramoss
01-04-2006 10:03 AM


Re: God would be to blame if we were automatons
I think that free will does imply ultimate disobedience. Anything else would be the automaton.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 247 by ramoss, posted 01-04-2006 10:03 AM ramoss has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 250 by ramoss, posted 01-04-2006 12:13 PM Faith has replied
 Message 251 by LinearAq, posted 01-04-2006 12:23 PM Faith has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 252 of 300 (275756)
01-04-2006 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 250 by ramoss
01-04-2006 12:13 PM


Re: God would be to blame if we were automatons
In which case, God KNEW that there would be ultimate disobediance, and did it on purpose.
I already gave you my view of this. God determined that it was worth it.
This message has been edited by Faith, 01-04-2006 12:40 PM

This message is a reply to:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 254 of 300 (275795)
01-04-2006 3:31 PM
Reply to: Message 251 by LinearAq
01-04-2006 12:23 PM


Re: God would be to blame if we were automatons
You imply that God can make someone have free will but can't think of any way to convince that person to remain obedient.
Not forever. Something in the nature of free will I think. But ultimately we will all remain obedient forever. I can hardly wait. Fighting the flesh and the devil is hard work and I lose the battle all the time and have to start over again.
I think I've answered all this already though, and I see IanO has done a good job on it as well. I guess you won't be persuaded or some others here nevertheless.
This message has been edited by Faith, 01-04-2006 03:33 PM

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 256 of 300 (275820)
01-04-2006 4:46 PM
Reply to: Message 255 by ramoss
01-04-2006 4:43 PM


Re: God would be to blame if we were automatons
NO, nothing is being ignored. We account for these things differently. Let's just agree to disagree.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 258 of 300 (275824)
01-04-2006 4:49 PM
Reply to: Message 257 by robinrohan
01-04-2006 4:47 PM


Re: God would be to blame if we were automatons
I'm getting sick of your ability to get to the heart of a matter so neatly.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 257 by robinrohan, posted 01-04-2006 4:47 PM robinrohan has replied

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 260 of 300 (275836)
01-04-2006 5:21 PM
Reply to: Message 259 by robinrohan
01-04-2006 5:12 PM


Re: God would be to blame if we were automatons
And your wit is perfectly nauseating too.
This message has been edited by Faith, 01-04-2006 06:48 PM

This message is a reply to:
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