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Author | Topic: Nature and the fall of man | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
NO, nothing is being ignored. We account for these things differently. Let's just agree to disagree.
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robinrohan Inactive Member |
I personally think that particular chain of logic leaves a lot to be desired.. and the implications about what it would mean if true are being totally ignored. I don't see anything unreasonable about saying that God cannot make a round square. That's what your idea amounts to.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I'm getting sick of your ability to get to the heart of a matter so neatly.
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robinrohan Inactive Member |
I'm getting sick of your ability to get to the heart of a matter so neatly. Well, Faith, the ascetic life pays off in the end.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
And your wit is perfectly nauseating too.
This message has been edited by Faith, 01-04-2006 06:48 PM
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ramoss Member (Idle past 640 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: |
Actually, that is not what my idea amounts to.
I am saying that the definitons of the majority of christians on what God is, and the definitons by the majority of Christians about what free will and the fall of man is make those concepts a contradiction. Callinggod Omincent and omnipotent, having him create man, and then having man fall from his own free will is saying man is a square peg.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Even an omniscient omnipotent God can't violate the logic of His own being and His own universe. That was Robin's point. I've been waiting for him to make the point again with his usual precision, but now I'm making it more klutzily instead. You claim God would have to make a man who both has free will and doesn't have free will, in other words to do something impossible, and if He didn't that means He's not omniscient or omnipotent according to you.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
It seems to me that God had to find an absolutely perfect balance between drawing a free-willed man to obey him and allowing a free-willed man to disobey him. And the scene had to be perfectly tuned in order for free-will to be the very free-est of wills. Anything shy of perfect balance means that God would have stacked the deck. Thinking about this some more, I think I disagree after all. I don't think it was a matter of fine-tuning and careful balancing. Seems to me that would have been more like stacking the deck. I think God made man in His own image, with His own moral characteristics, a man who would naturally be oriented toward the God who made him, and yet with a completely free will that could act independently of God. P.S. You were gone a while. Nice to have you back. This message has been edited by Faith, 01-04-2006 08:00 PM
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robinrohan Inactive Member |
And your wit is perfectly nauseating too Anyway, I appreciate the compliment very much.
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LinearAq Member (Idle past 4704 days) Posts: 598 From: Pocomoke City, MD Joined: |
Faith writes:
And yet the Bible tells us we are all what God cannot be: Sinners. I think God made man in His own image, with His own moral characteristics, a man who would naturally be oriented toward the God who made him, Also,Gen:21 The LORD smelled the pleasing aroma and said in his heart: "Never again will I curse the ground because of man, even though every inclination of his heart is evil from childhood... BTW: Where in the Bible does it say all this stuff you just wrote? It seems to say the opposite, that without God's help we could never be or do good. Psalms 14:3 All have turned aside, they have together become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one. Matt 15:18-20 {Jesus speaking} "But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man." Sure doesn't seem like we are "naturally" oriented toward God.
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ramoss Member (Idle past 640 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: |
Well, that is one of the problems of using just a line or two out of book to pick out a point. You are not quoting the line IN CONTEXT.
The Psalms of David are the story of David, supposedly written by him when he was trying to escape Saul. It records his dark despair and his ultimate victory. To take a line out of context from his darkest hour is not really dealing with the Psalms in context for which it was written. It seems to me too many people use 'single line' quotes out of context to weave a theology. They support the first line taken out of context, with another single line or two, also taken out of context.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Sure doesn't seem like we are "naturally" oriented toward God. We aren't. The Fall, remember? Adam originally was, then he disobeyed -- that was the Fall -- and ever since the human race tends to sin. This message has been edited by Faith, 01-04-2006 11:43 PM
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iano Member (Idle past 1969 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
ramoss writes: It seems to me too many people use 'single line' quotes out of context to weave a theology. They support the first line taken out of context, with another single line or two, also taken out of context. Amen (taken out of context of course!)
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robinrohan Inactive Member |
Jar, this thread has to do with exactly what we were talking about earlier. How does your religion account for suffering?
Here's an example: birth defects. Those who believe in the Fall have their own explanation. What's your religion's explanation? This message has been edited by robinrohan, 04-10-2006 06:19 PM
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Birth defects happen. Has nothing to do with religion.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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