Man raised back to life in Jesus' name

Ned, why don't you give Rich Oliver (mentioned below) a call, and see if he will provide his dentists' number since he was willing to go public already. THEY GO FOR THE GOLD - Gold Dust and Gold Teeth Filling Miracles Claimed in Charismatic Churches: Updatessome more from that article

Since these people are willing to take the time to document such things, you might want to give them a call. THEY GO FOR THE GOLD - Gold Dust and Gold Teeth Filling Miracles Claimed in Charismatic Churches: Updates

THEY GO FOR THE GOLD - Gold Dust and Gold Teeth Filling Miracles Claimed in Charismatic Churches: UpdatesKeep in mind that I do not personally vouch for these accounts. I can personally vouch for witnessing miracles in other settings, and in Toronto when I was there, but remember if you investigate these accounts that there are true miracles, true touches from God, and then fakes as well or people that want to believe so much, they think something changed when it did not. So you have to assess more than one story if you want to get a better picture of what occurred.For me, I have seen miracles of such an undeniable nature, even in my own life, that doubt that they occur is not an issue.I realize you and shraf doubt, but about the only way for you to deal with those doubts is for you to take the time and energy to look into this for yourself, not just the accounts that were fakes, but to talk with people and if possible look at records, of accounts that are true.

What records?

Hi CrashI've had a look at the link provided by randman and it states exactly what he quoted. It also omits any description of the diagnostic test which had been used when the child was 12 months old, ie whether it was antibody or virus detection.From this site I got the following snippet of information about Hepatitis C antibodies. A Google search turns up a number of estimates for the persistence of maternal antibody from approximately 10 months to 18 months.Randman's quote states that a post "healing" test failed to detect any virus, however what we actually need is confirmation that the test prior to healing showed virus present, rather than antibodies to the virus. Without that, the story is just describing exactly what we know passively aquired maternal antibodies do without miraculous intervention.

Trixie,A very good point. I suspect miracles are often the result of confirmation bias.Organisms, including ourselves are capable of some "miraculous" healing. If someone prays to Krishna and a healing happens, who gets the credit? Likewise if a charm from a witch doctor was used etc. Prayer could have powerful placebo effects and if frequent could also reap credit from coincidence.Also human memory will adapt to expectations. Insincere as well as sincere faith healers use these and other modalities. I'm not criticizing faith, it's a neccesary and powerful modality for people. But it needs to be balanced with thoughful analysis. People love stories of the miraculous and in comparison science can be a trifle drab. I appreciate your research and analysis.lfen

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Shraf, with all due respect, I am not desperate to see a miracle, and in our lives, my wife and I, such miracles are not uncommon. I know you don't buy that, but you have to understand I am not talking about something I have read or seen on the internet but real things that have occurred in my own life and the life of those around me, and yes, at times, instances of friends and acquaintances serving the Lord overseas which in some instances has even more dramatic miracles.

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But randman, how much skepticism do you retain and how much checking do you do in the face of such claims?I have shown you that one of the originators of this latest religious phenomena, who is a pastor of a church has admitted to getting carried away and forgetting that his gold filling was obtained 10 years ago in the usual manner; it was put there by his dentist.You obviously did exactly zero checking into the claims of miracle gold fillings. You accepted them at face value with not a drop of doubt.You seemingly doen't think there's anything dangerous about readily swallowing every claim of miracles without a moment's pause, nor do you make any effort to verify the claims, nor do you entertain the possibility that people want to be seen as special or part of the "in group", so they make it up, or get carried away and truly believe but are engaging in wishful thinking, confirmation bias, and self-delusion. This is exactly what happened to that pastor I mentioned above.And your claim about the child with Hepatitis. Did you know anything about the tests that Trixie has mentioned? Did you just uncritically accept that the miracle was true without doing any sort of investigating?Why not? Don't you want to know which ones are "real", which ones are the result of self delusions, which ones provide too little evidence to come to a determination, and which ones are outright frauds?All of this is what leads me to believe that you are desperate to see miracles happening all the time. This is the same reason all of those other people are desperate to see miracles, too.You would rather believe a comforting lie than work to discover a possibly uncomfortable truth.Just because they are in your church or are nice people or are "born again" doesn't make them immune from self delusion, wishful thinking, or confirmation bias. It also doesn't mean they are immune to having plain old sloppy or non-existent critical thinking skills and logic.That's the whole point I am trying to get you to understand.This message has been edited by schrafinator, 01-05-2006 08:33 AMThis message has been edited by schrafinator, 01-05-2006 08:35 AM

Shraf, the things I write to you about things I have seen in my own life have been checked. Obviously, if something is posted from the internet, I made a disclaimer on those that they are of similar types of things I have seen.You can check into them if you want. There seems to be people willing to allow someone like you to check into the events to see if they happened. If you want to know, look up the people, call them, and do some research.In all likelihood, you will find real miracles, but yes, people do get carried away and you can find some fake ones to or instances where people mistook something for a miracle.If you just want to debate, then I suppose you won't take the time to research and investigate these claims.

hey randman-A quick question: This whole "supernatural gold dentistry" angle seems more than strange to me. Is there some significance to the gold or the teeth?Here's why, on face value, I have trouble accepting gold-filling miracles:
1. Gold-fillings are routinely created by humans in very non-miraculous ways.
2. The preoccupation with gold seems far too materialistic to be divine.I mean, if someone suggested that they woke up one day with their hair supernaturally dyed blond, or that a twenty-dollar bill supernaturally appeared in their coat pocket, wouldn't you be far more skeptical than if the miracle was, say, blood flowing from a statue?Just asking for your thoughts here - not trying to be argumentative.

I have seen regular tooth filled in and gold. I offer no explanation here, but there is surely a prophetic significance to it.My reason for mentioning teeth miracles is that it is a little harder to dismiss than say, a tumor or cancer disappearing, since skeptics tend to think it's just coincidence.Keep in mind I am not overly concerned with convincing you here. Not to be mean or anything, but in my experience, it can be a bit of a waste of time trying to convince skeptics of miracles no matter how incredible they are. I will just say that, imo, there are far, far more miracles happening now than in Bible times. If people don't want to believe, that's their business.Those that want to know the truth can search for it and find it.As far things I have seen, they include a massive number of miraculous things. I hesitate to mention them on a site like this, but they include everything from tumors disappearing and serious illnesses and injuries being healed to some trivial items as once oil being put into a car that had no oil in it.This message has been edited by randman, 01-05-2006 06:12 PM

Thanks for your thoughts - I wasn't asking to be convinced, by the way.I think miracles are interesting things, especially when they are rather ordinary things. These things may simply be improbable or misunderstood events - maybe the engine always had oil in it, but an odd airpocket made it seem as though none was in it on previous inspection (don't feel the need to defend your miracle - I'm just throwing out a quick skeptic's viewpoint). It would be interesting to see how some religious leaderships investigate miracles (the Catholic Church does so, no?)From a skeptic's point of view, a miracle should be an impossible event, not an improbable one.I find defining things as miraculous events particularly odd when they are miraculous for some but not for others. In the recent mine tragedy in West Virginia, the fact that one person of thirteen survived has been repeatedly referred to as a miracle. Okay, but what about the other twelve guys? Similar statements were made after the 9/11 attacks, as in, "God saved me when I missed my train and didn't get to work in time at the WTC." Okay, what about the other several thousand people?I fear this is going off-topic, and I believe there is a "miracles" thread around here if there is any further interest.

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Shraf, the things I write to you about things I have seen in my own life have been checked.

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"Checked?"What, exactly, do you mean by "checked"?So far, you have not described anything other than acceptance without any "checks".And anyway, it's not true that you have only posted "miracles" that are from your own firsthand experience.You were not a firsthand witness to the incident you started the thread with, were you?And you weren't present at any of the incidences you claim are "real" that you cut and pasted from the web, were you?

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Obviously, if something is posted from the internet, I made a disclaimer on those that they are of similar types of things I have seen.

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Randman.One of the links you provided that was, I suppose, meant to support your claims of gold filling miracles, contained several reports by members of the Toronto Airport Christian Fellowship Church.Nowhere are any names of dentists given. There is no way to check the claims. So, they remain merely claims.This is the theme of all of the links you give.Come on, man, provide something verifiable that nobody has to take anybody else's word on anything.And, lest you forget, several of the original ministers in Canada who claimed to have receieved the very first Divine Dentistry were shown to have been self-deluded .The track record of these claims is, so far, not good when basic verification is done.

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You can check into them if you want.

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No, randman, I really can't.There are no names of dentists in the stories.

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There seems to be people willing to allow someone like you to check into the events to see if they happened. If you want to know, look up the people, call them, and do some research.

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The question is, though, why it is that you are seemingly completely uninterested in doing any of this research yourself before presenting these anecdotes as some sort of evidence on this discussion board.YOU are the one making the claims, so YOU are the one who needs to do the legwork and determine the real from the delusion from the wishful thinking from the fraud if you expect anyone else to take you at all seriously.

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In all likelihood, you will find real miracles, but yes, people do get carried away and you can find some fake ones to or instances where people mistook something for a miracle.

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Right.So don't you want to know who does this?Don't you want to know if you have been fooling yourself, or if others have been fooling you?

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If you just want to debate, then I suppose you won't take the time to research and investigate these claims.

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Jesus Christ, randman, what the frick have I been doing in this thread if it hasn't been doing all of YOUR bloody research?This message has been edited by schrafinator, 01-05-2006 09:19 PM

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to some trivial items as once oil being put into a car that had no oil in it.

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How do you know it had no oil in it?

Is there a Bible verse about gold fillings or anything dental beyond "their teeth shall be put on edge?" There sure need to be a couple, and I think that the talent exists here at EvC to write 'em.{/off topic diversion]

Or are there documented cases of gold filled teeth from an era before dentists started using them. Or maybe God is not omniscient after all, and had to wait until the dentists discovered the methodology before He knew how to do it.