Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
8 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,815 Year: 3,072/9,624 Month: 917/1,588 Week: 100/223 Day: 11/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Death before the 'Fall'?
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 76 of 230 (275930)
01-05-2006 12:13 AM
Reply to: Message 75 by Brian
01-04-2006 8:37 PM


Re: References?
Where does the Bible say God killed the animal(s) that Adam and Eve's clothes were made from?
All we have about the killing of animals is the implication of Genesis 3:21:
"And Jehovah God made for Adam and for his wife coats of skins and clothed them"
My opinion is that God killed the animals to obtain the coats.
I also believe that this killing was the basis upon which Abel killed animals to offer to God. He did not see God do it because he was not born. He learned it from his parents. This offering of the slain animal must have been a God revealed procedure for thier worship.
It foreshadowed the Son of God who would die and cloth the sinner with Himself as the sinner's righteousness before God.
Out of the hundreds and hundreds of events which could have been significant and recorded in Genesis, the Spirit of God inspired the writer to include these selected events because of the plenary revelation of the entire Bible.
This message has been edited by jaywill, 01-05-2006 12:14 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by Brian, posted 01-04-2006 8:37 PM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by macaroniandcheese, posted 01-05-2006 1:13 AM jaywill has not replied
 Message 79 by arachnophilia, posted 01-05-2006 3:31 AM jaywill has not replied
 Message 80 by Brian, posted 01-05-2006 6:09 AM jaywill has not replied

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 77 of 230 (275940)
01-05-2006 1:13 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by jaywill
01-05-2006 12:13 AM


Re: References?
and if he didn't kill the animal, then it was already dead. death before the fall. (chances are it did not die directly because of the fall... that was adam's supposed fate. therefore logic would suggest it died before this alleged fall.)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by jaywill, posted 01-05-2006 12:13 AM jaywill has not replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 78 of 230 (275957)
01-05-2006 3:30 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by purpledawn
01-04-2006 5:35 AM


Re: Wool
oh, ruin a perfectly good sarcastic comment, will ya?
Wool from the sheep
of course, they wore "skins" not "wool."
and milk from the goats.
you mean they were just vegetarians, not full vegans? what about chicken? fish? lobster? oh, wait, that's out.

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by purpledawn, posted 01-04-2006 5:35 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by purpledawn, posted 01-05-2006 7:23 AM arachnophilia has not replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 79 of 230 (275958)
01-05-2006 3:31 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by jaywill
01-05-2006 12:13 AM


Re: References?
"And Jehovah God made for Adam and for his wife coats of skins and clothed them"
My opinion is that God killed the animals to obtain the coats.
couldn't god have created them out of thin air like everything else?

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by jaywill, posted 01-05-2006 12:13 AM jaywill has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 80 of 230 (275979)
01-05-2006 6:09 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by jaywill
01-05-2006 12:13 AM


Re: References?
Hi,
Yep, I knew about that verse, but, as has been pointed out, it doesn't state that God killed the animals that the clothes were made out of. The animals could have died of natural causes, or a predator may have killed them, it does not say God killed anything, you are adding to the text. There is also the option of God speaking the clothes into existence.
So, we still have no scriptural support for death before the Fall, it is becoming more and more likely that this is yet another fundy gimmick.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by jaywill, posted 01-05-2006 12:13 AM jaywill has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by jar, posted 01-05-2006 11:42 AM Brian has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 81 of 230 (275986)
01-05-2006 7:23 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by arachnophilia
01-05-2006 3:30 AM


Re: Wool
Goth
I was so waiting for my nails to dry and your sarcasm just yelled for a total ruination.
As far as the skin thing, some Jewish beliefs carry the thought that A&E were totally light, and when the big guy gave them skin, he really gave them skin, you know, like flesh.
quote:
you mean they were just vegetarians, not full vegans? what about chicken? fish? lobster? oh, wait, that's out.
I was just providing possibilies other than edible. So don't overload my brain with your chicken and fish nonsense.
But seriously, to like keep the herbivore population from totally overpopulating the planet, there were either meat eaters or the first people did some major sacrificing.
Oh, nails dry! Later Babe Purple Smiles

There are two ways of spreading light: to be the candle or the mirror that reflects it. -Edith Wharton

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by arachnophilia, posted 01-05-2006 3:30 AM arachnophilia has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 82 of 230 (276044)
01-05-2006 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by Brian
01-05-2006 6:09 AM


Re: References?
You also do not just skin and animal and slip it on. To get from skin to hide to clothes is a fairly sophisticated process and takes more than 15 minutes.
They weren't no Off The Rack suits.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Brian, posted 01-05-2006 6:09 AM Brian has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 01-06-2006 12:48 AM jar has not replied

  
Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 1337 days)
Posts: 712
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 83 of 230 (276261)
01-06-2006 12:48 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by jar
01-05-2006 11:42 AM


Re: References?
Adam: Eden is a long way off. We're getting further away from K-Mart.
God: You don't have to go to Eden to get a pair of skins at K-Mart.
Adam: Have to go to K-Mart, Eden.
God: What did I tell you, Adam? We're not going back to Eden and that's final.
Adam: Gotta get my skins at K-Mart.
God: WHAT DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE WHERE YOU BUY SKINS?! SKIN IS SKIN!! IT'S SKIN WHEREEVER YOU BUY IT!! IN EDEN OR WHEREVER!!
Adam: K-Mart!
God: You know what I think, Adam? I think this not knowing good from evil is a bunch of $h!t! Because you can't tell me that you're not in there somewhere!
Adam: Skins. K-Mart!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by jar, posted 01-05-2006 11:42 AM jar has not replied

  
Jman
Inactive Member


Message 84 of 230 (276628)
01-07-2006 3:56 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by ReverendDG
12-31-2005 3:49 PM


Brian,
When reading the Bible it is important to understand that everything in it was written by men. In the case of the old testament this would be following many hundreds or thousands of years of oral story telling. In the case of the new testament usually through professional scribes which was the custom of the day. Scribes were literate men, fluent in many languages, especially greek. The Bible, I might ask which Bible because there are so many versions and editions, and it is a great mistake to ignore the Catholic text in which there are two stories of creation, that we see today is the complex result of the influences of men over the years. Better to trust the "spirt of the text" than to get trapped in a maze of questions.
There really is another way to determine at least a hint of what the story is really saying. To make sense of any religious text it is necessary to develop the ability to look behind to understand the author. Another way to put it is to realize the esoteric beneath the exoteric.
The story of Adam and Eve is very much like those instances in the new testament where we see the authors using parables to illustrate a teaching. If you read carefully you will see that on the sixth day God created man.... man and woman he created and told them to go forth and dominate the Earth. On the seventh day we hear about Adam and Eve and the fall. Plainly the Earth was well populated with humans before Adam and Eve left the garden. This is why Cain was able to go the land of Nod to find a wife.
Consider again the story of A&E and the garden. This is a parable . It's purpose was to relate the advent of the first true humans, the first in God's image, on Earth. All those other people were the results of the long years of evolution. When God saw they were ready, meaning the physical humans were evolved enough, His Spirit was infused in them. This began the sons of god on Earth and was the beginning of the end of the sons of men. Human souls do and have always existed separately from the bodies. They do not reside in our bodies, they are only connected to them, nor are they subordinate to the personality. Personalities are almost strictly temporal. If a man suffers injury which has a negative effect on his personality it is known by God because God looks to the soul to make the permanent and true judgement of the character of the man, and salvation is a word which describes the goodness of a man as told by the repository of his history. His soul! The soul is the part of us which is eternal, made in the image of God. The body is of no consequence beyond this life. This is the true meaning. The references to the vengefullness of God is only the best interpetation of the mysterious stories by men of the day. They spoke with conviction but a man to them was just what they saw in others. And God who they knew inately and through tradition, was an authority figure to be feared and obeyed. These attributes where common in those days of people living in family groups and to view the world in those same terms was for them quite normal.
Now if we take a look at that A&E story again perhaps we can see that the story recounts truthful events cloaked in the filters of understandable ignorance. We run into difficulties when we study God's creation without the ability to really see the events unfold. To do this it is only necessary to look behind the words. The Bible is true, but there are many layers to penetrate. At a certain point, deep inside the externals, there are no contradictions and the Word of God is clear.
I've learned over the years that we humans have a talent for making easy things complicated.
Brian there are many who know more than they say. If a preacher was to depart too far from the expected parameters he or she might suffer as a result. It is also true, very true that most people do not need to be concerned. It's really not necessary to have a successful and meaningful life. When a man wants to know however, he deserves to have the opportunity to hear more so he can decide on his own.
I preach a lot but I don't care much what others say or how they react. You may be sure that I believe what I say and that my deductions are the result of decades of study.
Jacob

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by ReverendDG, posted 12-31-2005 3:49 PM ReverendDG has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by AdminPD, posted 01-07-2006 7:55 AM Jman has not replied

  
AdminPD
Inactive Administrator


Message 85 of 230 (276636)
01-07-2006 7:55 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by Jman
01-07-2006 3:56 AM


Suggestions on Posting
Jacob,
Welcome to EvC. A few suggestions.
  • Your post seems to be directed at Brian. To avoid confusion please use the reply button at the bottom [right side with green accent, refered to as the LGB (Little Green Button)] of the post to which you are actually responding.
  • Please make sure that your posts advance the discussion. While interesting, your post doesn't seem to address the topic of "Death before the Fall."
Again, welcome and enjoy.
Thank you Purple
This message has been edited by AdminJar, 01-07-2006 11:33 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Jman, posted 01-07-2006 3:56 AM Jman has not replied

  
pianoprincess*
Inactive Member


Message 86 of 230 (282088)
01-27-2006 11:58 PM


When reading the Bible it is important to understand that everything in it was written by men.
The men were divinly inspired by God. The Bible isn't the words of men. God used the men to write his words.

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by Brian, posted 01-28-2006 6:06 AM pianoprincess* has not replied
 Message 88 by sidelined, posted 01-28-2006 1:56 PM pianoprincess* has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 87 of 230 (282113)
01-28-2006 6:06 AM
Reply to: Message 86 by pianoprincess*
01-27-2006 11:58 PM


Slight error
The men were divinly inspired by God. The Bible isn't the words of men. God used the men to write his words.
Being divinely inspired and being a vessel through which God simply wrote down His word is not the same thing.
Being inspired just means that the authors were motivated by their belief in God. People from all walks of life are inspirational to others, the members of the Civil Rights Movement, for example were inspired by Martin Luther King.
This is different to the second claim you make, that God essentially wrote the Bible by using people as scribes. If this were the case then there really wouldn't be a need for any inspiration.
Also, I don't believe that the Bible claims that God wrote it by using people as intermediaries, if you have some references that disagree I'd be happy to look at them.
Finally, I agree with Voltaire, to make God the author of the Bible would mean that you make God into a being that is essentially very poor at science, history and geography.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by pianoprincess*, posted 01-27-2006 11:58 PM pianoprincess* has not replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 88 of 230 (282168)
01-28-2006 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by pianoprincess*
01-27-2006 11:58 PM


pianoprincess
The men were divinly inspired by God. The Bible isn't the words of men. God used the men to write his words.
How do you know the men were not decieved?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by pianoprincess*, posted 01-27-2006 11:58 PM pianoprincess* has not replied

  
pianoprincess*
Inactive Member


Message 89 of 230 (283812)
02-04-2006 2:21 AM


You mean God lied? lol =) I dont get it....
and when i say divinely inspired i mean God writing his words using men. not the inperation i get after hearing a cool song or somtin. different kind of insperation.

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by sidelined, posted 02-04-2006 2:24 AM pianoprincess* has not replied
 Message 91 by jar, posted 02-04-2006 10:35 AM pianoprincess* has not replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 90 of 230 (283813)
02-04-2006 2:24 AM
Reply to: Message 89 by pianoprincess*
02-04-2006 2:21 AM


pianoprincess
What do they write that allows you to say that it is divine inspiration as opposed to imagination?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by pianoprincess*, posted 02-04-2006 2:21 AM pianoprincess* has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024