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Author Topic:   Man raised back to life in Jesus' name
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 166 of 300 (276847)
01-07-2006 9:58 PM
Reply to: Message 161 by nwr
01-07-2006 9:04 PM


Re: Ghost limbs
Well, yeah. If what he means is that they're going to see activity in the motor cortex regions associated with a limb that is no longer present, well, yeah. Duh. Nothing weird about that.
I presumed from context he meant "NMRI signals emanating from body parts that are no longer present", like you put a double amputee in the scanner and, lo and behold, the image shows legs where his legs used to be.
That doesn't make any sense. NMRI detects the radio resonance from the nuclei of atoms rapidly flipped via powerful magnetic fields; to suggest that souls could show up in such a scan is to suggest that souls are made out of atoms.

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Replies to this message:
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nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 167 of 300 (276851)
01-07-2006 10:11 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
01-07-2006 9:55 PM


Re: Ghost limbs
Could one consider this as a potential evidence that the soul exists?
In a word, NO.
It is just that the brain wired itself when the limbs were present. Now that they are absent, there are still neural signals that cause sensations that made sense when the limbs were present.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 01-07-2006 9:55 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 01-07-2006 10:49 PM nwr has replied

macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 168 of 300 (276852)
01-07-2006 10:14 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
01-07-2006 9:55 PM


Re: Ghost limbs
why would the soul require arms or legs?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 01-07-2006 9:55 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 170 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 01-07-2006 10:45 PM macaroniandcheese has replied
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Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 1336 days)
Posts: 712
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 169 of 300 (276869)
01-07-2006 10:43 PM
Reply to: Message 165 by sidelined
01-07-2006 9:56 PM


Re: Can anyone define a miracle for me? Anyone?
sidelined writes:
These wave like properties are also detectable. Are you aware of any studies that have detected such?
The only thing, in my mind, that might be related to this question is the search for quantum gravity.
The soul, it seems to me, would be some kind of inverse quantum fluxation that defies the properties of the virtual particles around them.
As Simon Hooks notes in his on-line article:
Simon Hooks writes:
To us, vacuums appear to contain nothing at all. But, it you were to look closely, very, very closely (to the order of 10^-35m), space is actually a foaming mass of quantum activity. This quantum foam is made of particles and micro-black holes popping in and out of existence, apparently in contravention of the second law of thermodynamics, they appear out of nothing with energy, then disappear again just as quickly. The key to this is the uncertainty principle. The disturbance is permitted to ”borrow’ a tiny amount of energy and exist for a very short length of time, and then it must return the energy and disappear again. But, the more energy it borrows, the less time it is allowed to exist. These ”temporary’ particles, called virtual particles, are not just theoretical, they have been proven to have real effects on scientific experiment.
Please note that Simon Hooks is not attempting to validate the existence of the soul based on his research. His objective was to answer the question: Given the First Law of Thermodynamics: that you can't get something from nothing. Where did all the stuff in the universe come from and how is it still a law if it was once broken?
The following thoughts are my own thoughtas in regards to the knowledge we theoretically have today.
Whereas matter is "self-contained" and can pop from one point to another as 'vitual particles' in harmony with the second law of thermodynamics, the soul would be an effectively open system which defies the second law.
Whereas matter is permitted to ”borrow’ a tiny amount of energy and exist for a very short length of time (and then it must return the energy and disappear again), the soul would simply be a potentially eternal openning to the initial conditions which preceeded the Big Bang (and it wculd continue on even if the matter in the universe were to revert back into a Big Crunch for example).
Whereas with matter the more energy it borrows the less time it is allowed to exist, the soul would be in opposition to this, the less energy it borrows the more time it is allowed to be open to the initial conditions.
If matter is openned to the intial conditions precedding the Big Bang, it could adopt the properites of the soul. Similarly, if the soul becomes closed to the initial conditions precedding the Big Bang, it could adopt the properties of matter.

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Replies to this message:
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Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 1336 days)
Posts: 712
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 170 of 300 (276872)
01-07-2006 10:45 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by macaroniandcheese
01-07-2006 10:14 PM


Re: Ghost limbs
I dunno.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by macaroniandcheese, posted 01-07-2006 10:14 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 173 by macaroniandcheese, posted 01-07-2006 10:50 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 1336 days)
Posts: 712
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 171 of 300 (276876)
01-07-2006 10:47 PM
Reply to: Message 166 by crashfrog
01-07-2006 9:58 PM


Re: Ghost limbs
crashfrog writes:
That doesn't make any sense. NMRI detects the radio resonance from the nuclei of atoms rapidly flipped via powerful magnetic fields; to suggest that souls could show up in such a scan is to suggest that souls are made out of atoms.
Or, it could suggest that souls can interact measurably with atoms even though they are themselves currently beyond our direct ability to capture.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by crashfrog, posted 01-07-2006 9:58 PM crashfrog has not replied

Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 1336 days)
Posts: 712
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 172 of 300 (276878)
01-07-2006 10:49 PM
Reply to: Message 167 by nwr
01-07-2006 10:11 PM


Re: Ghost limbs
So what happens when neural signals are fired off but the person who's brain emitted the signals clearly states (albeit, with much confusion), "Um...I didn't do that."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by nwr, posted 01-07-2006 10:11 PM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 192 by nwr, posted 01-07-2006 11:44 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 173 of 300 (276880)
01-07-2006 10:50 PM
Reply to: Message 170 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
01-07-2006 10:45 PM


Re: Ghost limbs
good answer
but what people don't mention is that phantom limb syndrome isn't restricted to natural body parts. anything that touches you and excites the nervous system can leave an imprint. and some people imprint faster and are affected longer than others. if i wear a hat, i can feel it for hours afterwards. i used to wear a ring that i was given and i could feel it for days after i finally took it off.
but then we know i'm not neurotypical.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 01-07-2006 10:45 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 175 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 01-07-2006 10:53 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 174 of 300 (276883)
01-07-2006 10:52 PM
Reply to: Message 169 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
01-07-2006 10:43 PM


Re: Can anyone define a miracle for me? Anyone?
Whereas matter is "self-contained" and can pop from one point to another as 'vitual particles' in harmony with the second law of thermodynamics, the soul would be an effectively open system which defies the second law.
Whereas matter is permitted to ”borrow’ a tiny amount of energy and exist for a very short length of time (and then it must return the energy and disappear again), the soul would simply be a potentially eternal openning to the initial conditions which preceeded the Big Bang (and it wculd continue on even if the matter in the universe were to revert back into a Big Crunch for example).
And how exactly does sexual intercourse cause this to happen? What's the cellular organelle in the ovum that responds to fertilization by, what exactly? Opening a portal through time back to the big bang?
Seriously - all these things sound more reasonable to you than, say, the idea of an entirely naturalistic explanation of life and consciousness? Which I might point out is the position exactly supported by the evidence?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 01-07-2006 10:43 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 177 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 01-07-2006 10:58 PM crashfrog has replied

Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 1336 days)
Posts: 712
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 175 of 300 (276886)
01-07-2006 10:53 PM
Reply to: Message 173 by macaroniandcheese
01-07-2006 10:50 PM


Re: Ghost limbs
Can an imprint occur when nothing actually happened?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by macaroniandcheese, posted 01-07-2006 10:50 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 176 by macaroniandcheese, posted 01-07-2006 10:57 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 176 of 300 (276892)
01-07-2006 10:57 PM
Reply to: Message 175 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
01-07-2006 10:53 PM


Re: Ghost limbs
what do you mean? do you mean i took off my ring but no one chopped off my finger? or do you mean i just randomly start feeling an extra arm?
yes the prior, as to the latter...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 01-07-2006 10:53 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 178 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 01-07-2006 11:04 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 1336 days)
Posts: 712
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 177 of 300 (276894)
01-07-2006 10:58 PM
Reply to: Message 174 by crashfrog
01-07-2006 10:52 PM


Re: Can anyone define a miracle for me? Anyone?
But I didn't put forth a theory as to how sexual intercourse "creates souls". I put forth a possible theory whereby one can, provided the knowledge of quantum gravity become more established and clarified, a potential for one to examine to see if a "soul" exists in the first place.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by crashfrog, posted 01-07-2006 10:52 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 210 by crashfrog, posted 01-08-2006 12:46 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 1336 days)
Posts: 712
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 178 of 300 (276902)
01-07-2006 11:04 PM
Reply to: Message 176 by macaroniandcheese
01-07-2006 10:57 PM


Re: Ghost limbs
I'm talking about a child receiving a heart transplant from another child -- and the child who received the transplant starting to have nightmares about a man killing her -- and the girl having such vivid dreams that her parents look into the situation only to find that the original organ donor was indeed murdered -- and the child having such vivid dreams that she is able to identify the killer of the original donor in a police line-up -- and get the murderer convicted and put into jail based on the testimony of the child who received the heart transplant.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by macaroniandcheese, posted 01-07-2006 10:57 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 179 by macaroniandcheese, posted 01-07-2006 11:06 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied
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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 179 of 300 (276905)
01-07-2006 11:06 PM
Reply to: Message 178 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
01-07-2006 11:04 PM


Re: Ghost limbs
i think that would qualify as genetic memory... and it's not proven as far as i know.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 01-07-2006 11:04 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 180 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 01-07-2006 11:11 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 1336 days)
Posts: 712
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 180 of 300 (276910)
01-07-2006 11:11 PM
Reply to: Message 179 by macaroniandcheese
01-07-2006 11:06 PM


Re: Ghost limbs
But it does make for an interesting read...
Cellular Memory in Organ Transplants
Leslie A. Takeuchi, BA, PTA
In addition to this, it does seem to be highly linked with the idea of answering the question, "Can an imprint occur when nothing actually happened?" In the organ recipients case, nothing actually happened directly to them. They do, however, seem to be experiencing "imprints" nonetheless.
At the very least, there seems to be some corroborative evidence that one's consciuosness can exist (at least in part) after death.
Edit: corrected spelling, clarified points.
This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 01-07-2006 11:14 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by macaroniandcheese, posted 01-07-2006 11:06 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 185 by macaroniandcheese, posted 01-07-2006 11:28 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied
 Message 211 by Ben!, posted 01-08-2006 12:49 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied
 Message 212 by crashfrog, posted 01-08-2006 12:51 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

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