Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,806 Year: 3,063/9,624 Month: 908/1,588 Week: 91/223 Day: 2/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Man raised back to life in Jesus' name
pink sasquatch
Member (Idle past 6022 days)
Posts: 1567
Joined: 06-10-2004


Message 181 of 300 (276913)
01-07-2006 11:12 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
01-07-2006 9:14 PM


Re: hypotheses and the supernatural
I disagree.
Based on the information we have today, I think that a lack of any indication of bone restructuring/growth would strongly indicate a lack of a miracle.
There is a fallacy in there. Let me rewrite your line a bit to point it out:
Based on the natural information we have today, I think that a lack of any indication of natural bone restructuring/growth would strongly indicate a lack of a supernatural miracle.
You are trying to use a naturalistic hypothesis to make predictions about a supernatural force. Simply not possible. You don't even know what the supernatural force is, let alone how it would act, or what evidence it would leave behind.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 01-07-2006 9:14 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 183 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 01-07-2006 11:19 PM pink sasquatch has replied

pink sasquatch
Member (Idle past 6022 days)
Posts: 1567
Joined: 06-10-2004


Message 182 of 300 (276916)
01-07-2006 11:14 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by macaroniandcheese
01-07-2006 10:14 PM


why would the soul require arms or legs?
Masturbation and jogging.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by macaroniandcheese, posted 01-07-2006 10:14 PM macaroniandcheese has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 184 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 01-07-2006 11:23 PM pink sasquatch has not replied

Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 1336 days)
Posts: 712
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 183 of 300 (276918)
01-07-2006 11:19 PM
Reply to: Message 181 by pink sasquatch
01-07-2006 11:12 PM


Re: hypotheses and the supernatural
So you're using this excuse as a reason not to look at all then?
It seems to me that a pattern should be evident. Furthermore, your definition of "supernatural" seems to be linked to the idea of "impossible". My definition of "supernatural" is more closely related to "unexplained".
Now, for example, if one did check a report for restored limbs, and one did actually find the bone-structure exactly as I noted before, would that be considered an evidence that something "supernatural" occured?
You can use whichever defintion you prefer to answer this.
This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 01-07-2006 11:20 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by pink sasquatch, posted 01-07-2006 11:12 PM pink sasquatch has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 187 by pink sasquatch, posted 01-07-2006 11:33 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 1336 days)
Posts: 712
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 184 of 300 (276926)
01-07-2006 11:23 PM
Reply to: Message 182 by pink sasquatch
01-07-2006 11:14 PM


hee hee
Shock and Awe!
(wait a sec...that should be reversed)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by pink sasquatch, posted 01-07-2006 11:14 PM pink sasquatch has not replied

macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 185 of 300 (276930)
01-07-2006 11:28 PM
Reply to: Message 180 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
01-07-2006 11:11 PM


Re: Ghost limbs
i think i've said it somewhere before... but i have had dreams about buildings that i've never seen but i later find out to be real. they tend to be in locations where i have ancestors.
i don't rule it out. i think it's a better explanation than reincarnation. but i don't think it's necessarily proof of a soul or of anything supernatural. just because we don't understand it yet doesn't mean it's got to be abnormal or extra-real. there was a time when people didn't understand fire or earthquakes.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 01-07-2006 11:11 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 186 by randman, posted 01-07-2006 11:33 PM macaroniandcheese has replied
 Message 188 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 01-07-2006 11:36 PM macaroniandcheese has replied
 Message 221 by nator, posted 01-08-2006 9:26 AM macaroniandcheese has replied

randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4898 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 186 of 300 (276933)
01-07-2006 11:33 PM
Reply to: Message 185 by macaroniandcheese
01-07-2006 11:28 PM


Re: Ghost limbs
brenna, take a step back though. If we begin to understand how the soul works, that does not mean the soul does not exist all of the sudden but would be more evidence of the soul.
To think of spiritual and supernatural as referencing things that can never be understood by definition is a major modern fallacy.
Imo, the fact you possess some foresight is indicative more than you have a spirit than soul, but that's because I think there is a major difference between the 2. The spirit can view beyond space-time if gifted to do so. Of course, your idea of a connection with your ancestors would be another explanation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by macaroniandcheese, posted 01-07-2006 11:28 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 189 by macaroniandcheese, posted 01-07-2006 11:37 PM randman has replied

pink sasquatch
Member (Idle past 6022 days)
Posts: 1567
Joined: 06-10-2004


Message 187 of 300 (276934)
01-07-2006 11:33 PM
Reply to: Message 183 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
01-07-2006 11:19 PM


Re: hypotheses and the supernatural
So you're using this excuse as a reason not to look at all then?
Me? Yeah, I'm getting there, anyway...
There are always evidence-based naturalistic explanations for supernatural claims.
There are always faith-based supernatural explanations for naturalistic claims.
To some extent, why bother? (Except perhaps for fun and profit...)
Furthermore, your definition of "supernatural" seems to be linked to the idea of "impossible".
Yep. Because something impossible would break the cycle I note in bold just above.
Now, for example, if one did check a report for restored limbs, and one did actually find the bone-structure exactly as I noted before, would that be considered an evidence that something "supernatural" occured?
First, since noone has ever analyzed a regenerated human limb before, it would be difficult to know what the data meant. (Though if there was an opportunity to analyze several of these alleged regeneration cases it would get more interesting.)
Second, better documentation would need to exist that the limbs were gone at some point than "I know this person who know this really smart person who totally believes that this village is convinced this guy's legs regrew!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 01-07-2006 11:19 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 190 by macaroniandcheese, posted 01-07-2006 11:40 PM pink sasquatch has replied
 Message 202 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 01-08-2006 12:22 AM pink sasquatch has replied

Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 1336 days)
Posts: 712
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 188 of 300 (276935)
01-07-2006 11:36 PM
Reply to: Message 185 by macaroniandcheese
01-07-2006 11:28 PM


Re: Ghost limbs
That's basically my thoughts on the matter too.
Technically speaking when someone says they don't beleive in the "supernatural", it usually means they believe that our knowledge basically can cover and explain most things.
It remains, however, very possible for a "soul" to exist in purely naturalistic terms -- it's just relegated to the "realm of the supernatural" because we can't explain it yet.
Technically speaking, in regards to the supernatural, I am an atheist. If it's real then it's real regardless of whether we can explain it or not.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by macaroniandcheese, posted 01-07-2006 11:28 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 191 by macaroniandcheese, posted 01-07-2006 11:41 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied
 Message 222 by nator, posted 01-08-2006 9:33 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 189 of 300 (276937)
01-07-2006 11:37 PM
Reply to: Message 186 by randman
01-07-2006 11:33 PM


Re: Ghost limbs
i don't disbelieve in a soul. but i think it is foolish to just stop questioning just because 'oh well that's just your soul'. apparently there's some unaccountable 21 grams lost at death. i lose a pound or two every night unexplainably. i can't possibly sweat that much and if i weigh myself before i use the restroom i still sometimes am lighter than i was the night before. did my soul die a little? no. then i guess broken down food weighs less than undigested food.
for a thing to be supernatural, means that it is not governed by natural laws. our brains are governed by such and as a result, i think they cannot comprehend unnatural things.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by randman, posted 01-07-2006 11:33 PM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 193 by randman, posted 01-07-2006 11:48 PM macaroniandcheese has replied
 Message 223 by nator, posted 01-08-2006 9:37 AM macaroniandcheese has replied

macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 190 of 300 (276941)
01-07-2006 11:40 PM
Reply to: Message 187 by pink sasquatch
01-07-2006 11:33 PM


Re: hypotheses and the supernatural
actually, children under five can and do regrow lost body parts. well. usually digits, but still

This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by pink sasquatch, posted 01-07-2006 11:33 PM pink sasquatch has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 194 by pink sasquatch, posted 01-07-2006 11:51 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 191 of 300 (276943)
01-07-2006 11:41 PM
Reply to: Message 188 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
01-07-2006 11:36 PM


Re: Ghost limbs
i think it is possible that things exist outside of the known universe that do not follow the laws of such. can we know about them? maybe. but we will probably never be able to name or understand them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 01-07-2006 11:36 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 203 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 01-08-2006 12:25 AM macaroniandcheese has replied

nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 192 of 300 (276946)
01-07-2006 11:44 PM
Reply to: Message 172 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
01-07-2006 10:49 PM


Re: Ghost limbs
There is quite a literature on ghost limbs. Try google.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 01-07-2006 10:49 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 205 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 01-08-2006 12:29 AM nwr has replied

randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4898 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 193 of 300 (276950)
01-07-2006 11:48 PM
Reply to: Message 189 by macaroniandcheese
01-07-2006 11:37 PM


Re: Ghost limbs
But if our mind and imagination consist of more than our brain with our brain being a receptor of both input from the body and spirit, then our minds can comprehend spiritual things.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by macaroniandcheese, posted 01-07-2006 11:37 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 196 by macaroniandcheese, posted 01-08-2006 12:04 AM randman has replied
 Message 224 by nator, posted 01-08-2006 9:39 AM randman has not replied

pink sasquatch
Member (Idle past 6022 days)
Posts: 1567
Joined: 06-10-2004


Message 194 of 300 (276952)
01-07-2006 11:51 PM
Reply to: Message 190 by macaroniandcheese
01-07-2006 11:40 PM


reg ref
actually, children under five can and do regrow lost body parts.
Reference, please.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by macaroniandcheese, posted 01-07-2006 11:40 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 195 by macaroniandcheese, posted 01-07-2006 11:59 PM pink sasquatch has replied

macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 195 of 300 (276962)
01-07-2006 11:59 PM
Reply to: Message 194 by pink sasquatch
01-07-2006 11:51 PM


Re: reg ref
oh geeze. it's common knowledge. the only sources i can find are kiddie books.
http://www.ualberta.ca/...l/Articles/It'll%20Grow%20Back.htm
With children under age five who lose the tip of a finger up to halfway to the outermost joint, if left untreated, the finger will regrow completely. If medical attention is applied, stitches for example, the child's finger will not regrow.
You Can't Sneeze with Your Eyes Open, by Barbara Seuling, 1986, Ballantine Booksw NY
This message has been edited by brennakimi, 01-08-2006 12:00 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by pink sasquatch, posted 01-07-2006 11:51 PM pink sasquatch has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 197 by pink sasquatch, posted 01-08-2006 12:05 AM macaroniandcheese has not replied

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024