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Author Topic:   Man raised back to life in Jesus' name
Ben!
Member (Idle past 1399 days)
Posts: 1161
From: Hayward, CA
Joined: 10-14-2004


Message 211 of 300 (277022)
01-08-2006 12:49 AM
Reply to: Message 180 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
01-07-2006 11:11 PM


Re: Ghost limbs
In addition to this, it does seem to be highly linked with the idea of answering the question, "Can an imprint occur when nothing actually happened?" In the organ recipients case, nothing actually happened directly to them. They do, however, seem to be experiencing "imprints" nonetheless.
Nothing actually happened? They had an organ transplant.
The article is interesting. I can certainly see some of the information being useful and true; it seems like a reasonable suggestion to me that nervous responses given by organs help make up personality, especially in simple forms such as likes and dislikes.
And I can also see where there's room for really bogus stuff, like
quote:
When she met the donor's parents, they played some of his music and she, despite never having heard the song, was able to complete the phrases.
Way too many possibilities to take that one seriously.
And other cases... you can't make determinations scientifically. These people went through traumatic events; a change for a woman to begin being attracted to men after receiving a heart transplant from a straight woman is not strong evidence of anything. Who can possibly tell what caused it?
And it's not like this is happening consistently; these are rare occurences. Seems tough to account for with a theory of "spiritual borrowing."
Which brings up the point of... how would this even work? Is the spirit somehow left behind in the organ "the heart"? How can we differentiate the pure biologial explanations from "spirit + biology" explanations?
If I'm being harsh, I do so to try to point out something--it seems that it's unfamiliarity with the subject matter, and not any reasoning, that leads to this kind of thinking. I don't see any necessity for it.
At the very least, there seems to be some corroborative evidence that one's consciuosness can exist (at least in part) after death.
Only if you want it to. There's no need to reference anything outside of the body. You'd only do so if you wanted to, not because you needed to.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 01-07-2006 11:11 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 219 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 01-08-2006 3:21 AM Ben! has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 212 of 300 (277024)
01-08-2006 12:51 AM
Reply to: Message 180 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
01-07-2006 11:11 PM


Re: Ghost limbs
In addition to this
In addition to what? A nursing student's list of anecdotes? There's no indication in any of these stories that the recipients weren't told about their donors. A girl completing phrases of songs she's never heard before? I doubt a 16-year-old teenager is capable of writing anything but the most banal, predictable songs in the first place. I regularly am able to accurately predict the ending of movies I've never seen before. Am I a sorcerer? Or just somebody familiar enough with basic movie plotting to pick up on the forshadowing?
Seriously, I'd recommend a little less credulousness on your part.
At the very least, there seems to be some corroborative evidence that one's consciuosness can exist (at least in part) after death.
No, there doesn't. The best anybody can ever present is nothing more than some unverifiable anecdotes. Well, you can have anecdotes that prove anything. That's why the plural of "anecdote" is not "data."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 01-07-2006 11:11 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 216 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 01-08-2006 3:02 AM crashfrog has replied

Ben!
Member (Idle past 1399 days)
Posts: 1161
From: Hayward, CA
Joined: 10-14-2004


Message 213 of 300 (277029)
01-08-2006 1:01 AM
Reply to: Message 209 by macaroniandcheese
01-08-2006 12:41 AM


Re: Ghost limbs
i'm quite sure of the extent of my body.
Ugh, you're going to make me go try and dig up those "home experiments" where you modify your perception of the extent of your body to include parts of your desk, or a fake rubber hand, and thus are able to FEEL touches to parts of your body as emanating from those inanimate objects.
Serves me right for the "homework" i seem to always give you in your PNTs
when i look in the mirror, there's always so much more of it
Funny how our perceptions are so socially created. 'Cause for younger guys who aren't worried about getting fat (but concerned about muscle mass), they usually think the opposite.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by macaroniandcheese, posted 01-08-2006 12:41 AM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 227 by nator, posted 01-08-2006 9:47 AM Ben! has not replied
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pink sasquatch
Member (Idle past 6023 days)
Posts: 1567
Joined: 06-10-2004


Message 214 of 300 (277031)
01-08-2006 1:02 AM
Reply to: Message 202 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
01-08-2006 12:22 AM


Re: hypotheses and the supernatural
This has already been covered in the text provided by schrafinator.
Yep. My summary was pretty spot-on, if you ask me.
If you dismiss it out of hand without investigating it further, then you are not actually engaging in the scientific method at all.
Correct.
You're just blowing it off because your mind's already made up.
Don't confuse my apathy with biased scientific assumption.
My only "assumption" is that any miracle will have both a natural and a supernatural explanation, and individuals will choose which one to believe based on their own worldview.
But, since this is a medical expert who happens to be your best friend, it seems as though you should investigate it further.
It doesn't take a medical expert to meet a man who claimed to once have no legs, and see that he does indeed now have legs.
In fact, I have no interest at all in continuing to discuss this hypothetical situation.
As far as I can tell, these studies seem to be preliminary evidence that there is a faith-based supernatural* explanation for a supernatural* claim.
I think it was just in 2004(?) that a review was done of the intercessory prayer studies, and several of them were shown to used fabricated / unethically manipulated data to demonstrate the "power of prayer."
However, it has been accepted that patient condition improves when the patient knows they are being prayed for.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 01-08-2006 12:22 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

Replies to this message:
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Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 1337 days)
Posts: 712
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 215 of 300 (277065)
01-08-2006 2:54 AM
Reply to: Message 207 by Ben!
01-08-2006 12:38 AM


Re: Ghost limbs
Ben writes:
...and that it will take some learning about how the brain works in order for you to understand why.
Ok...let's tackle this one topic...
It seems to me that you're basically conclusing that mind (or consciousness) is a function of matter -- matter that has attained a certain degree of organization.
Am I correct with that assumption?
If so, some neurosurgurians in the field has concluded otherwise.
For example, Wilder Penfield actually changed his mind on this very topic based on his own investigations into neurological connections. Penfield is actually considerd the father of modern neurosurgury -- and he, like you, actually started off with the idea that consciousness somehow emanated from the neural activities of the brain.
Penfield writes:
Through my own scientific career, I, like other scientists, have struggled to prove that the brain accounts for the mind.
But through performing surgery on more than a thousand epileptic patients, he encountered concrete evidence that the brain and the mind are actually distinct from each other, although they clearly interact.
Lee Edward Travis writes:
Penfield would stimulate electrically the proper motor cortx of conscious patients and challenge them to keep one hand from moving when current was applied. The patient would seize his hand with the other hand and struggle to hold it still. Thus one hand under the control of the eletrical current and the other hand under the control of the patient's mind fought against each other.
There is positive evidence that consciousness and the self are not merely a physical process of the brain. We have experimental data where people's brains are electrically stimulatd in order to cause them to move their arms or legs, turn their heads or eyes, talk or swallow. And invariably the patient (each one) would respond by saying something like, "I didn't do that. You did."
In other words, the patient clearly thinks of himself as having an existence separate from his body. In fact, no matter how far Penfield probed the cerebral cortex, there was no place that he could find where an eletrical stimulation of the brain would cause a patient to "believe" or "decide".
There's been a lot of subsequent research beyond Penfield's research too.
For example, when Roger Sperry and his team studied the differences between the brain's right and left hemisphere, they too discovered that the mind has a causal power independent of the brain's activities. The work of Roger Sperry (and John Eccles) has shown us that the movements of consciousness trigger the patterns of neural events.
Another study showed a delay between the time an eletric shock was applied to the skin, its reaching the cerebral cortx, and the self conscious perception of it by the person. This too suggests that "the self" is more than just a machine that simply "reacts" to stimuli as it receives them.
Think about dreaming itself.
How exactly do researchers know that there are a certain eye movements when people are dreaming?
They had to wake them up and ask them. Researchers could watch the eyes move and read a printout of what was physically happening in the brain. They could correlate certain brain states with eye movements, but they they didn't know what was going on in the mind.
Researchers can certainly know about the brain by studying it, but they can't know about the mind without asking the person to reveal it. It seems to me as though this is because "conscious states" have the feature of being inner and private whereas "brain states" don't.
The details of the neurophysiology of the brain can easilly be viewed as merely footprints (in a physical medium) of non-physical, non-genetic supersensible realities connected to the activity of human consciousness. In fact, it seems as though the evidence currently points towards the view that consciousness exists independently of the brain.
As one researcher exploring the possibility of life after death explained it, the brain might serve as a mechanism to manifest the mind - much in the same way a television set manifests pictures and sounds from waves in the air. If an injury to the brain causes a person to lose some aspects of his mind or personanilty, this doesn't necessarilly prove that the brain was the source of the mind. All it shows is that the apparatus is damaged.
Consequently, as recent research into autistic behavior has noted, their consciousness is quite intact all along. In fact, they're often quite aware of what's going on. It's the neurological wiring that messing up their physical actions -- not their consciousness messing up their physical actions.
Observe:
Mind Tree Poems
How Does the Autistic Brain Work?
Incidently, the research of Ramachandran is rather interesting. I'll read more of it when I have a chance. From such observations, some have drawn the inference that the left temporal lobe is either (a) the seat of a God-given human faculty for experiencing the divine or (b) the seat of religious delusions.
However, I will note that Ramachandran is also careful to note that patients may in fact be experiencing God ” so who can say? Either way -- the brain still appears to be somewhat separate from consciousness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by Ben!, posted 01-08-2006 12:38 AM Ben! has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 230 by nwr, posted 01-08-2006 10:39 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied
 Message 231 by Ben!, posted 01-08-2006 11:29 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 1337 days)
Posts: 712
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 216 of 300 (277066)
01-08-2006 3:02 AM
Reply to: Message 212 by crashfrog
01-08-2006 12:51 AM


Re: Ghost limbs
How old are you crashfrog?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by crashfrog, posted 01-08-2006 12:51 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 233 by crashfrog, posted 01-08-2006 12:48 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 1337 days)
Posts: 712
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 217 of 300 (277067)
01-08-2006 3:06 AM
Reply to: Message 214 by pink sasquatch
01-08-2006 1:02 AM


Re: hypotheses and the supernatural
pink sasquatch writes:
In fact, I have no interest at all in continuing to discuss this hypothetical situation.
Fine. I'll leave this question here in case you ever change your mind.
Mr. Ex Nihilo writes:
...if indeed, based on the reported hypothetical situation above, you do find a very odd bone growth which has a clear break in the bone showing age on one side (the side which is claimed to have existed already), and no apparent age on the other side (the side which is claimed to have miraculously regrown), what would you conclude?
pink sasquatch writes:
I think it was just in 2004(?) that a review was done of the intercessory prayer studies, and several of them were shown to used fabricated / unethically manipulated data to demonstrate the "power of prayer."
Link please?
pink sasquatch writes:
However, it has been accepted that patient condition improves when the patient knows they are being prayed for.
Cool.
Have a good one.
Think I'll go get another beer.
(dang, it's like 3:32 -- where'd al the beer go -- where is everybody?)
This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 01-08-2006 03:28 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by pink sasquatch, posted 01-08-2006 1:02 AM pink sasquatch has not replied

Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 1337 days)
Posts: 712
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 218 of 300 (277068)
01-08-2006 3:17 AM
Reply to: Message 210 by crashfrog
01-08-2006 12:46 AM


Re: Can anyone define a miracle for me? Anyone?
crashfrog writes:
What makes you think you get to ask one question and not the other? I mean, that seems to be a fairly reasonable question to ask about souls - where the fuck do they come from? How does a gamete know when to generate a soul? Or do all gametes have mini-souls? Where in the cell is this soul stored?
Here's a better question: Who cares?
I was responding to sidelined's question:
sidelined writes:
These wave like properties are also detectable. Are you aware of any studies that have detected such?
I answered his question as best as I could. It doesn't have anything to do with sex.
If you want to find out how sex produces souls, maybe you should go watch a porn movie and take notes. Or, better yet, spend time with your S.O. and find out for yourself.
You do have an S.O., correct?
crashfrog writes:
You and I both know that, no matter how our scientific knowledge expands, you and your fellow believers will make sure that souls and Gods and all the rest of it are handily defined in such a way that the lack of evidence for them is made to appear consistent with their existence, anyway. So what's the point?
No.
I've just given you a definite theory. Once quantum gravity is more clearly defined and understood, and virtual particles can be measured with more accuracy, I suspect that there will be found a lack of these 'virtual particels' in areas where human souls occupy time-space. Actually, I'll go one step further and predict that these virtual particles will be found in both solid objects and open spaces, but areas where human souls are theorized to exist will be found to have significantly less 'virtual particles'. It may even be the case that animals and other life-forms that are considered "alive" will also be found to have more 'virtual particles' occupying thier space than human beings do -- because humans have souls (or, at least more soul than animals do).
I admit that this might be difficult to pin-point. But there's no hiding here. I've laid out a theory which is predictable and can eventually be measured once our standards of measurement are accurate enough to do so.
I also admit I could be wrong. But I'm not making up handily defined ideas in such a way that the lack of evidence for them is made to appear consistent with their existence.
I don't see it anyway.
This message has been edited by Mr. Ex Nihilo, 01-08-2006 03:42 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 210 by crashfrog, posted 01-08-2006 12:46 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 236 by crashfrog, posted 01-08-2006 1:00 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

Mr. Ex Nihilo
Member (Idle past 1337 days)
Posts: 712
Joined: 04-12-2005


Message 219 of 300 (277070)
01-08-2006 3:21 AM
Reply to: Message 211 by Ben!
01-08-2006 12:49 AM


Re: Ghost limbs
My simple answer is that I think this phenomenon is worthy of further investigation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by Ben!, posted 01-08-2006 12:49 AM Ben! has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 232 by Ben!, posted 01-08-2006 11:31 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 220 of 300 (277095)
01-08-2006 9:17 AM
Reply to: Message 178 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
01-07-2006 11:04 PM


Re: Ghost limbs
quote:
I'm talking about a child receiving a heart transplant from another child -- and the child who received the transplant starting to have nightmares about a man killing her -- and the girl having such vivid dreams that her parents look into the situation only to find that the original organ donor was indeed murdered -- and the child having such vivid dreams that she is able to identify the killer of the original donor in a police line-up -- and get the murderer convicted and put into jail based on the testimony of the child who received the heart transplant.
Yeah, I saw that movie too.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 01-07-2006 11:04 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 221 of 300 (277096)
01-08-2006 9:26 AM
Reply to: Message 185 by macaroniandcheese
01-07-2006 11:28 PM


Re: Ghost limbs
quote:
but i have had dreams about buildings that i've never seen
How can you be 100% sure that you've never seen them, even in a photograph?
We already know that your memory isn't 100% perfect, just like everyone else's.
quote:
but i later find out to be real.
But are they exactly the same in every single detail, or only vaguely similar? Unless you immediately drew a detailed picture of the building in your dream upon waking and then compared it with the actual building, how do you know you aren't just filling in details that weren't really in the memory of your dreamed building? Perhaps they are all from the same era or by the same architect and your mind finds a few similar details, then "poof", your memory is altered and now the buidings are, in your mind, "the same".
A memory of something in a dream. You don't get much more amorphous and easily altered than that.
quote:
they tend to be in locations where i have ancestors.
"Tend" to be?
Does this occur at a rate greater than chance would predict?
This message has been edited by schrafinator, 01-08-2006 09:27 AM
This message has been edited by schrafinator, 01-08-2006 09:29 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by macaroniandcheese, posted 01-07-2006 11:28 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 239 by macaroniandcheese, posted 01-08-2006 1:03 PM nator has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 222 of 300 (277098)
01-08-2006 9:33 AM
Reply to: Message 188 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
01-07-2006 11:36 PM


Re: Ghost limbs
quote:
It remains, however, very possible for a "soul" to exist in purely naturalistic terms -- it's just relegated to the "realm of the supernatural" because we can't explain it yet.
Define "soul".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 01-07-2006 11:36 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 229 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 01-08-2006 10:19 AM nator has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 223 of 300 (277099)
01-08-2006 9:37 AM
Reply to: Message 189 by macaroniandcheese
01-07-2006 11:37 PM


Re: Ghost limbs
quote:
apparently there's some unaccountable 21 grams lost at death.
Sorry, that's an urban myth.
FACT CHECK: Weight of the Soul

This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by macaroniandcheese, posted 01-07-2006 11:37 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 238 by macaroniandcheese, posted 01-08-2006 1:02 PM nator has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 224 of 300 (277100)
01-08-2006 9:39 AM
Reply to: Message 193 by randman
01-07-2006 11:48 PM


Re: Ghost limbs
quote:
But if our mind and imagination consist of more than our brain
That's a big "if."
So far, there is no rational reason to accept that anything more than the brain is needed to account for human behavior.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 193 by randman, posted 01-07-2006 11:48 PM randman has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 225 of 300 (277101)
01-08-2006 9:42 AM
Reply to: Message 204 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
01-08-2006 12:26 AM


Re: Ghost limbs
quote:
Actually, some neurologists would disagree with you on this.
Sure.
But how many neuroscientists would disagree?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 01-08-2006 12:26 AM Mr. Ex Nihilo has not replied

Replies to this message:
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