Egyptology Sets Up A Straw Man

Ray,Do you have any peer reviewed articles that confirm that the inscription is written in Phoenician?Yes or no will be fine for now thanks.Brian.

well i was hoping to get an answer i could challenge but i guess thats too much for ray

Let's keep the discussion civil Rev please.Always treat other members with respect.AdminBrian.

Brian does the best at debating Ray. What you got is as good as it gets. Just look back over some Willowtree threads. You decide if you find value in the activity or not. I was just trying to give you a heads up!lfen

sure nope problem, i just wanted to debate sad that ray doesn't want to

Reverend Demon:I don't know.Could you please paste the exact quote which has caused this tangent ?We were discussing David. Remember ?Ray

I have twice pasted the below to no avail of even an acknowledgement: We also know Aramaic was not a prevalent language until the 7th century BC. This means it is quite unlikely that anyone would produce a victory inscription in a language almost unheard of.Also, much additional evidence of my claims has been ignored.We know the finders of the Rosetta Stone had no idea what was written. This undermines your previous point that "finder = knows all about the find". But this was not your point. Your point was the identification of Aramaic is uncontested. I have contested and given worthy evidence to the contrary.Ray

http://EvC Forum: Egyptology Sets Up A Straw Man -->EvC Forum: Egyptology Sets Up A Straw Manbeing that you claim eveything i asked you as a strawman in my first post, and percy asked you to learn what a strawman is, and you bring theology into it, when it was irrelevent, points to you diverting the topicbut anyway how about my post?
why would a large area ruled over by david for a peaceful period go unrecordedwhy do you discount romes records of being defeated? why do you ignore historic evidence of defeats in that area?This message has been edited by ReverendDG, 01-08-2006 07:28 PMThis message has been edited by ReverendDG, 01-08-2006 09:05 PM

Hi Ray, This doesn't say that the text is Phoenician, it only says that Aramaic cannot be distinguished from Phoenician at that time. So, if it cannot be distinguished, how do you know it is Phoenician and not Aramaic? Could it be that some texts are indistinguishable but there are subtle differences in the Stele that identifiy it as earlt Aramaic? Whether it prevalent or not is immaterial, if it is the language of even a small group it would still exist and therefore could be the language of the stele. Why should the victory inscription be in a different language from that of the victor, why wouldn't an Aramaic prince want his inscription to be written in Aramaic? I fail to see what you are getting at here, the finders of the Stele DID know what was written on it! Are you saying that their translation from Aramaic is incorrect? Remember that Biran and naveh translated the stone from the impression that it was early Aramaic, they must have seen something to distinguish it from Phoenician or they would have said that the lanuage was Phoenician but being used by an Aramaic scribe. Well, I didnt say it was 'uncontested' I said I haven't read a single scholar who says it is written in Phoenician, and all I have from you is a quote from Dr. Scott and a paragraph that says Aramaic and Phoenician were indistinguishable in the 9th century BCE. These quotes do not address the fact that all scholars I have read identify the script as Aramaic. Could it be that the script is Phoenician, but Biran was so keen to identify it with an Aramaean, with a view to try and support something in the Bible, that he made an error? Could it also be that every one of his opponents didn't check out Biran's accuracy?Brian.

Hi Ray, In another thread, I have already presented you with many instances of recorded defeats by near eastern nations. If you remember correctly I posted some of the Amarna Letters that mention many defeats, so you need to alter your argument slightly.Also, you mention the Mesha Stele, I have, in the past, mentioned that the Stele mentions a defeat by Omri on Mesha's father:Omri was king of Israel and oppressed Moab many days, for Chemosh was angry with his land. Some Near Eastern nations apparently did record defeats, however there would need to be some evidence of aggression at the time and place we are looking at.Brian.

I made my points.I am willing to let this commentary be the last word.The inscription is early Aramaic.Ray

I am sorry. I do not remember what you are talking about. I do remember Amarna.Amarna is private correspondence circa 9th century BC.My topic here is about Near East nations or kingdoms and their official records - whether textual, inscription, bas-reliefs, imagery, iconographical, etc.etc. Only Israel records defeats - do you know why ?RayThis message has been edited by Herepton, 01-09-2006 05:30 PM

It is the same thing, the Amarna Letters are from Near Eastern city states to the Pharaohs. Many contain records of defeat from other nations, so they are recorded.A reminder:Translations are from the book The Tell-el-Amarna-Letters , Berlin : Reuther & Reichard, 1896.EA 126 Sihlali-Sumur (from Irkata?) And behold,, I (?) have been driven . out of Irkata and (am?) in Simyra, and I have not the people who are at the palace. EA 134 The Prince of Hazi The Habiri are hostile to me, and are taking possession of the cities of my lord, the king, my god, my sun. For the Habiri have taken Mahzi ti, the city of my lord, the king, and have plundered it, and have given it over to the fire. And the habiri have occupied the city of Sigata . EA 137 A Syrian Prince to the King Abd-asirti has marched against me and behold, he has beaten my people and . EA 138 Akizza of Katna My lord, Azira has carried off the people of Katna, my servants although they all belong to my lord s country. EA 146 Zimrida of Sidon O my lord I am your servant, and Namiawaza has made me evil in your eyes, O my lord. And while making me evil in your eyes, he has been occupying the whole territory of my father in the land of Kades, and my towns, he has given over to fire. EA 147 Zimrida of Sidon And let my lord, the king, know that the hostility against me is very powerful, all my cities, which the king gave into my hand, have fallen into the hands of the Habiri EA 162 Lapaja Since I have fallen (?) ? ? ? my two cities have been taken.EA 165 Suwardata Let the lord, the king, know that Abd-hiba has taken my city from me ..

​

Further, lapaja is dead, he who took our cities and, verily, lapaja was allied with(?) Abd-hiba and (the tow of them) robbed our cities. Also, what about the Egyptian records regarding the Hyksos, are these not records of defeat? No, they are private correspondences dated from c. 1400-1350 BCE. The Mesha Stele records a defeat.Why are the Amarna Letters not considered an official record, the intact ones follow the formula for official letters.Where are Israel's official records, as in official texts, inscriptions, bas-reliefs, iconographical etc etc? Mostly it is to highlight Yahweh's greatness, if the Israelites were defeated it was because someone must have offended Yahweh, if it was a victory then Yahweh was 'with' them. However, the majority of the 'defeats' recorded in the Hebrew Bible probably never happened and are fictional accounts made up to give Israel a past and to reflect God's power.Why do you think they recorded defeats, and can you give any record of a defeat outside of the Hebrew Bible?Brian.

Hi Brian: Then we agree Amarna is private and not any type of official correspondence created to preserve defeats.By the way, your dating places you in the same camp as your favorite scholar - Rutherford This conventional dating of Amarna has long been refuted and abandoned. 1400 to 1350 BC is based upon the assumption that New Kingdom Pharoahs actually reigned in New Kingdom time period. New Kingdom Pharoahs reigned about 600 years later. Thutmose III was Shishak, contemporary with Rehoboam. The evidence is overwhelming. Please show me what you mean. Because their main purpose was not to record a defeat. The defeats are incidential.I admit the OP sets up a straw man (asking where Near East nations record defeats). I did this to expose the straw man of Egyptology which sets up the exact same straw man in order to assert the Plagues/Exodus is false history.Defeats are not recorded. Why would anyone record the Plagues/Exodus when the Bible says Egypt was destroyed ?Why do Egyptologists ask "where are the Plagues/Exodus in Egyptian records ?"Where is any pattern and precedence of defeats being recorded by any Near East ?Why no mention of Plagues/Exodus in Amarna ? The Bible dates the Exodus in the mid-15th century. Yet a few decades later the correspondence makes no mention of these earth shattering events. The answer is because Amarna = circa 9th century BC. Israel's official texts is called the Old Testament. They made no graven works. Sometimes they erected altars and memorials with stones set upon each other.The O.T. records many defeats of Israel = evidence that God controlled its content as claimed. Show me exactly what you mean ? Bible History, Maps, Images, Articles, and Resources for Biblical History - Bible HistoryRay

I'll admit upfront I know next to nothing about this period of time (whenever it was ) in terms of biblical or non-biblical history, but it seems to me an obvious question needs to be asked. Maybe it has an obvious or well-known answer - I apologise in advance if that is the case.Egypt surely didn't exist in a vacuum? If it was 'destroyed' or even just suffered the Biblical plagues combined with the loss of a large number of slaves (at least according to some - I think from previous postings you subscribe to this view) and then the death of the Pharoah and the annihilation of his army it must have been very weakened.If so doesn't this create a big (and I mean huge) opportunity for neighbouring Empires and Kingdoms to grab some terrority or for subjugated areas and/or peoples to rise up and try for freedom?Now if this happened there are two possible outcomes in each case:

• The Egyptians win
• The other side win

In either case somebody is going to have victories to record - do we see a burst of victories recorded by the Egyptians or their defeats recorded by the victors following on from the period of the plagues and Exodus?I know it is possible that Egypt went through all these problems with no subsequent problems of the kind I've described, but through history it very often seems that turmoil or disaster in a country provides opportunity which others are willing to exploit.Edit: I see from the very next post jar asked this sort of thing eight months ago - well I never was the quickest on the block This message has been edited by MangyTiger, 01-11-2006 07:30 PM

---

I wish I didn't know now what I didn't know then