God says this, and God says that

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yes, christians do believe that God has given everyone ample testimony of his existence, and God asks only that man trust him

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Like what? Also, which version of god or gods are there ample testimonies? Seems the testimonies that we have from the gods comes from somebody who saw/heard/felt the presence of/had their baby of the gods and that we should believe them. As those testimonies come from other humans and we all agree that humans are prone to make mistake after mistake, why should we believe them? If a person tells you that they heard from god and they felt their god's gentle touch and got to play with its children on some planet in the Large Magellenic Cloud, would you believe them?

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that's all he's ever asked... christians believe it is very reasonable to believe God exists... of those who believe God exists, some trust him but don't believe Jesus is Messiah... some trust him but believe Jesus and man are co-Messiahs... some trust him but believe salvation is of God alone, and that Jesus earned it for us... and some don't trust him at all

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Well, it's been 2000 years and at least 100 generations. I don't even know what my great-great-great granfather did and your god wants us all to beleive what happened almost 25 times that gap? I think god would be better served just coming down and saying "Hi", do a few miracles, maybe a stint in Vegas with the boys and their tigers to let us know that:1: He exists.2: What He really wants.Until then, telling me that the lessons in life are in a book compiled 1500 years ago with variations due to the translators personal choice of words is the end all just will not fly. I will accept that there is such a thing as wisdom of the ages but the bible is not the only source of ancient wisdom.

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is it reasonable to believe the gospel is true? only if one believes God exists and only if one then trusts him

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I would venture to guess that many Muslims, Hindus, and others would strongly contest that. They believe in their god or gods yet put no more faith in your scriptures than you do in their Holy book.------------------
When all else fails, check the manual

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"The Lord Jesus shall be revealed ... in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:" 2 Thessalonians 1:7,8 KJV

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Which gospel? What translation? Should those who wish to learn what the Christian god said need to learn Aramaic or Greek to really get the full effect? Or is the true gospel, the true holy book written in some dead language on some island peoples who died 10k years ago?Actually, it sounds more like threats from those who want you to believe the church they support.------------------
When all else fails, check the manual

from forgiven:

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this post and your previous might lead one to believe that while you don't deny God's existence you would need more before you could decide *which* God exists, the muslim, hindu, christian God... is this in fact your position?

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In a nutshell, yes. But also from my previous posts I find it hard to call any god who makes the rules mumbled, with several different sets on the playing field yet expects those it created to play by the right set or be punished, to be anything like a just god. When people have to use the phrase "that is god's justice" to describe what most of us would call inhuman at best or down right barbaric, that is just making an excuse for a being that should be able to state what it wants clearly and directly into the minds of every creature in the cosmos.------------------
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let's not get ahead of ourselves here.

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then before we precede, since you affirm the existence of *some* God, tell me about the one you believe in...

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That's it. I don't believe in any god or gods. There may very well be a god or gods and they or it may no longer exist.

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tell me his attributes, his teachings, his will for you... i need to know what you believe so i don't build a straw man (or straw God) to argue against

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I don't see how you can and I'm not being nasty here. I don't know what is out there if anything. If there is a god or gods, we are not its or their crowning acheivement, it may be unaware or unintelligent. It may not be the only one and it could be as petty as we are, only worse as it's more powerful.------------------
When all else fails, check the manual

I see my mistake. I will be more careful with you in phrasing my words more carefully and not posting when it's late at night.I don't believe in any god yet I am convinced there is no god or gods. There is no evidence one way or the other. There could also be more than one god, dead gods, gods coming into being and more than any of us could imagine. They only thing we can do is show that current figures of gods described in books may or may not exist as they are defined in those books.However, I saw an interesting twist on words here:

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Mr. D:

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I don't know what is out there if anything. If there is a god or gods, we are not its or their crowning acheivement, it may be unaware or unintelligent. It may not be the only one and it could be as petty as we are, only worse as it's more powerful.

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more powerful in its unintelligent way?

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That's not what I said. I said that any god or gods could be unaware of our existance juat as we unaware of dust mites that live all around us. Also, just because something is powerful does not mean it is intelligent. Crocs are powerful yet I would not call them smart.One thing I will say is that I doubt we are its or their crowning acheivement instead of the absolute that we are not.

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i think before you decide to argue against the existence of God you might need to have some idea of what the word 'god' means to you...

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Thanks for the concern, but no thanks. Your point is not valid. I have a several ideas of god and gods, from one I was brought up to fear or else I'd go to hell, pantheons of gods, and even dead gods.What I can argue against is the existance of what you feel your god is quite easily using the bible as a starting point. A serious problem that you have is there is nothing to show that your god is any more real than say Marduk of the Sumarians or Oden of the Norse.------------------
When all else fails, check the manual

Crud:This is what it is supposed to say:I don't believe in any god yet I am NOT convinced there is no god or gods. There is no evidence one way or the other. There could also be more than one god, dead gods, gods coming into being and even more UNUSUAL BEINGS than any of us could imagine.Sorry, not enough Java.As for evidence that your God exists? Oh, a simple "Hi, watch me pull another Universe out of a black hole" would suffice. Yes, that was in jest but why I don't believe in any god is I haven't seen the need for one.As for Presumptions, yours is that your God exists and there is nothing that could disuade you from thinking otherwise, at least for now. One question, are you a biblical literalist? You know, 6 day creation, Noah's flood, that type of stuff.------------------
When all else fails, check the manual

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you keep missing the point... it isn't enough for you to make the statement, *argue* it... make your case, but do so without relying on tools your worldview does't give you... at least stand up and admit it your worldview is irrational, but don't use reason to argue!! don't use logic!!... those don't exist, can't exist, in your world... at least admit you're nothing but atoms reacting to other atoms and nothing more

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Ah, I see what you are doing. When you find that your God is under attack, change the playing field. If a person's an atheist, tell them that to deny the "supernatural god" you want them to acknowledge is the same as denying reality. Make sure that you place all of the tools that humanity has off limits while doing so. You then claim that these tools are the very same thing that comes from god, your God in this particular case, so you can hamstring them and make them waste time chasing red herrings while we go around trying to define the meaning of what "Is" is.How you get that one can't use logic, a purely human invention, plain silly. Where did it come from? I'd say chemical interactions in the brian. Why does it do those things? Well, I don't know and I don't think anybody does, yet. The "ghost in the machine" is what you hold on to to make your point. Logic is usuable as we know it comes from humans. We can define it. We may not know where exactly it comes from inside of us is at the moment immaterial. If we listen to the likes of you, we will forever be stuck in the cave, afraid to venture outside fearing what we don't know and taking great pains not to find out.As for "being only atoms reacting to other atoms" is a misnomer. While I am, as are you, comprised of atoms, actually very complex compounds that I can't pronounce, does not make me anything less. I am still the father to my children, still a husband to my wife, still another wage slave to my employeer, still a son to my parents, and so on. The problem is you can't see your life as anything but meaningless without your God. I can find meaning even without a god.------------------
When all else fails, check the manual

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so you demand empirical evidence for a transcendental entity?... are your demands re this particular entity (the christian God) consistent with your demands for all such entities? must all transcendental entities be empirically verified, or do you solve this problem by denying their existence?...

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I would demand that from any god or gods as evidence they exist! However to believe that anyone of them exists is faith and an entirely different matter.

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your position appears arbitrary, thus irrational on its face...

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I guess it would to you, but I can't seem to let that bother me much. I have a consistant worldview and it does not require the supernatural. Can I explain everything? No. Does it really matter where my thoughts common from or what I take to be my ability to choose for myslef? No.

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i don't expect that to bother you much, but most people would rather embrace a worldview that is at least consistent in its dogmas

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I am consistent. Just because you have a hard time accepting them does not bother me.

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we all have presuppositions, but you misstate my position... i have a view of the world that is internally consistent, i can give an account for things that exist yet are not suspended in time and space..

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Calling upon some supernatural force to solve where things comes from is just delaying the question. The next question then becomes "Where did that supernatural entity come from?" I just cut out the middle man. You say I don't know where things ultimately come from but neither do you. If you say "God has always been here", fine. I can equally state with as much conviction that the Universe has always been here, in one form or another. The difference is mine need not envoke a boogy man to explain things when the boogey man itslef can't be explained.

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you can't, not without borrowing from my worldview...

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What conceit! My worldview is not borrowed form you, we both borrowed parts of it from the culture we were brought up in. The egotism to say that to use your worldview I need to believe the way you do is truly repugnant. Our culture's worldview came from other cultures before it, and theirs from other cultures before them. To say that it is based upon your worldview is just you reaching as your arguement is weak.

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so while i believe the bible is the inspired word of God i don't see how you can argue against it without using the very tools you deny, the very tools that can be accounted for from only within my worldview

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That's rich. See I don't deny the tools. They were created by men, not a god. There is no problem there. You on the other hand have a huge problem. You assert that the tools we use come from your God and the Bible. Well, human civilization has been around a lot longer than your bible and your religion. You worldview has come from the mixing and matching of ancient pagan religions and Judaism into Christianity. Despite your feelings to the contrary our shared, but slightly differnt worldview is not centered around or a product of your God.------------------
When all else fails, check the manual

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the discussion isn't exclusive to God (or gods)... the discussion is on metaphysical entities, things not suspended in time and space... their origin doesn't matter at the moment,

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Of course not. Then your whole house of cards will come tumbling down.

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what matters is whether or not you demand that the laws of logic, for example, be empirically verified or do you accept them a priori? if the latter, you argue against yourself

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Intersting. If I use and accept logic then I argue against myself. LOL! You proceed from a simplistic POV. Either I accept your God and therefore be able to use your God's tools or I can't use the tools as you know your God provided them.Earth to forgiven: Just because you think that your God is the source doesn't make it so. Even if logic and the other tools we use came from a god, it does not mean it came from your God. f these tools did in fact come from another god, a true God (though not yours), as I would say you would deny the existance of such a being then you're unable to use those tools as well. You would agree, correct?

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then why are you here? anyone can say "i don't care that i have no answers, yours are wrong neener neener"...

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Huh? I said "I don't know (yet) where things 'ultimately come from'", but I do not woryy about it. As humanity spreads our understanding, we will learn. The only one saying "neener neener" is you. I realise you can't handle an honest answer like "I don't know, but I think we'll know one day" as you're use to lies forom the ICR and AIG, but try to understand not everyone lies.

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so your worldview is consistent eh? then tell me whether or not transcendental entities exist or if only the material is real

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The material is real. As far as the transcendental goes, I don't know as I have seen nothing that indicates it does.But then we get into the sticky subject that what we can see in the universe is only about 5% - or 10% of everything that is out there. For the rest of the stuff, "dark energy", "Flavoured" neutrinos, the so called "WIMPS" and even weirder objects, we have found evidence that they do exist. Just what are they, I don't know.

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how can you continue to miss the most elementary things?

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I guess I must have graduated.

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whether or not my explanations appease you, at least i have them!!...

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So do Muslims, Hindi, Buddhists, and your point is?

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you have none, you admit as much...

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No, you infere as much as it suits your purposes. I don't know what is all out there. I don't know what the supernatural is or even if it exists.

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you simply say you are right and that's all there is to it,

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no argument needed *sticking your fingers in your ears and making noises*... that's unacceptable

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You're correct so I'll never steal your schtik.

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LOLOL... i keep hoping some of your more intellectually honest brother atheists will come along and tell you how wrong you are, but maybe the loyalty runs too deep...

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????? It's the YEC and literal crowd that seems to stick together no matter how inane some claim that was made by one of their own. Go check your mirror.

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once more, it isn't enough to assert that your worldview is consistent while denying the existence of things necessary to make it so...

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And to think you say you never assert anything.

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"logic exists but God doesn't" you say...

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I don't believe in any god or gods, but the more you post the more I am convinced that your version of a deity, the God of the Bible, doesn't exist. The rest I am unsure about. What's the problem there? If that makes me an atheist, it is only an atheist to your God, nothing more. As I allow for the possibility of other gods and you do not - not if you're a true believer in the Bible and the word of your God which states that no other exists - you're an atheist as well if you were to use your standards on yourself.

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"why?" i ask... "just because and that's consistent and i don't have to explain anything so there" you say

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Huh?

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what was created by men? reason? logic? morality?...

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All of the above and not only those, but visions of what they wanted their deity or deities to look and act like.

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you are confused as to the terms 'descriptive' and 'proscriptive' i think... prove, empirically, that logic exists...

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Sophistry. You can't show you God exists so challenge everything eose to cast doubt on everything. Nice try but I won't bite.

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you demand such proof of others, hold yourself to your own standard

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I hold the gods to that standard to show themselves. I could always get a plane ticket, fly out to where you live and know you exist. The gods have not as far as I can tell.

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i've puposely abstained from naming individual fallacies in your posts because it would be too tiring...

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The fallacies are in your head. If you see a fallacy, I would dare say it is because you can't accept it, not due to any problem on my part. Again you fall back to a position of "Forgiven is right, you are wrong". It makes it much easier to call those that you disagree with and their statements "fallacies".

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but try not to say what it is i assert unless i actually assert something...

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Pure sophistry. Your ability to twist words to make yourself think you are actually scoring points is laughable. You may think that you have not asserted anything, but you are wrong.Assertion-->You assert that I am unable to use tools as I deny the existance of the supernatural. I do not deny the existance of the supernatural, I have just never seen it.Assertion-->You have a view that your God is the only one to exist when you have not shown that to be true. That you would also claim that your God is responsible for everything is an assetertion as well. So please don't say you haven't asserted anything. You have in buckets.Assertion-->Your name "forgiven" is an assertion. You assert that you are somehow above all of us as you have already been forgiven no matter what you do.Assertion-->The only god you'll entertain is the God of the Bible. So no other talk of any other god would be enough to satisfy you. You live in a false dichotomy of either/or. Either your God did it all or nothing really exists.So, don't start with me and proclaim you don't assert anything. It's a hollow and empty claim.

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i can explain what i believe, i can account for both material and metaphysical entities...

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No you can't, you just think you can. That's your arguement's greatest weakness. You claim that the material came from your God and that your God has been here forever. Sums it up pretty weel, don't you think?

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you can't... and what's worse, you admit you can't and say you don't have to...

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Read again cheif. What I saidarbitrariness is irrational...

Well I noticed you snipped out a great deal of what I posted to you, but no matter.What you've really been doing is substituing the "God of the Gaps" into this discussion. All of your talk about "what is logic" and yout "worldview" and the like are just other attempts at asking "Where did it all come from". Yes, you'll claim that you've never asserted that particular claim but you do. If I or someone were to tell you that logic is just a specific form memory which itself is just a collection of neuro-chemicals in specific orders that trigger physical responces, you'll ask "So why do they work that way". This is just another form of transitional fossils. You will continue to look for whatever you can to avoid seeing that maybe, just maybe, your worldview is wrong and there is no need for any god, let alone your God.So what is logic? For a quick brief, logic would be simply be equated to cause and effect. Another form could be pattern recognition. That all depends on who you talk to at the time. Humans did not invent cause and effect, but we have a word for it. Simple logic is if A is less than B, and B is less than C, then logic would dictate that A is less than C. As the problem become more complex, so too would the answer and the flow at which one would arrive at the answer. Nothing truly mystical there.Your whole arguement is this: "Where did it come from?"Your answer, your "worldview" as it were, is: "God gave us all of that".Nevermind it does not answer the question, "Where did God come from". You'll feel good and oh so smart knowing you have the answer. The problem is even if morality, logic, emotions, etc., all came from a divine being, it does not follow it came from your God. Just because we can't, yet at least, explain why the mind works as it does, what many have called the "Ghost in the Machine", but unless people like you are put in charge of science maybe one day we will.So forgiven, in you "worldview" where does logic come from?------------------
When all else fails, check the manual

What forgiven is really trying to do is show that all of these things one could call metaphysical, morality, logic, good/evil, and more are divine gifts. Just because he has nothing to show that even if they were, it does not mean they come from his God.He's challenged basic things to throw a person out of their train of thought to muddle the issue. In the end, he's pulling another "God of the Gaps" approach to show us all that there is a real need to have a deity to give all of those emotions, freewil, and such. While it may be sometime before we learn about our minds and how they work, as it's not explained now, he'll use it to show that a god is needed to get these things done.------------------
When all else fails, check the manual

From John:

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Originally posted by Mr. Davies:

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What forgiven is really trying to do is show that all of these things one could call metaphysical, morality, logic, good/evil, and more are divine gifts.

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I've been through this same romp with forgiven. It is interesting to see the same assertions recur.

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Hey, go with what you think is your strength, no matter how weak it is.

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Actually, I think forgiven quite believes what he says. Any muddling isn't intentional.

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Perhaps.

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If you read forgiven carefully you'll notice how extraordinarily Platonic he is. He treats ideas and concepts as if they were independently existing things. This is the base for his statements that atheists cannot account for metaphysical entities. The catch is that forgiven simply assumes that such entities exist, so the argument is toothless.

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True. His ASSERTION is that they are seperate entities and that they were created. Sadly he can't even show that his God is the one responsible for any of it.