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Author | Topic: God says this, and God says that | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Gzus Inactive Member |
quote: Well, let's look at it from another angle guys 'When my money is in the bank vault and I'm locked outside I don't have direct sensory verification of it either. Does that necessarily mean that the money does not exist?' no it doesn't, you are right, you have absolutely no idea, the money could be there, but equally probable is that it isn't there. however, having established that you have no reason to believe or not believe anything, how can you be punished for not believing? This is the flaw in religions that profesy damnation. Jesus said, 'all those who have heard the gospel and yet do not believe, will be condemned'- i seem to remember somewhere from sunday school. but the question 'is the gospel true?' is very much the same as 'is there money in the bank'. you have no reasonable obligation to believe it. The argument that most christians/mormons/etc use to counter this is 'but God is within each of us and he speaks to us' hence (supposedly) obliging us to believe because after all, god is telling us. Agnostic: 'but i can't hear him' Christian: 'that's because you have no faith' Agnostic: 'but how am i obliged to have faith?' Christian: 'because the bible says so' Agnostic: 'why should I believe the bible?' Christian: 'because otherwise YOU GO TO HELL!' at which point the agnostic wins because the christian has descended into dogma. In the end, the 'why should I's always win.
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Gzus Inactive Member |
No on has answered my question yet.
‘however, having established that you have no reason to believe or not believe anything, how can you be punished for not believing?’ please answer Gzus
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Gzus Inactive Member |
Ah yes, a true skeptic
Let me put it another way. You preach the gospel to me. Why should I believe you? Can you prove that the gospel belongs to ‘truth’, which is inaccessible to humans (read Berkeley)? If not, then why should I believe you? How can God punish me for not believing?
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Gzus Inactive Member |
I am referring merely to the god of the majority of the creationists on this forum, ‘jehovah’, ‘allah’, the guy upstairs, fire and brimstone. The Judaeo-Christian concept of damnation. (a problem which admittedly not all religions have)
"it is in fact true that we can not know truth?" — yes, well, noting the absurdity of the statement, I have attempted to formulate a ‘better’ one. Truth, undeniable, perfect argument immune to the powers of scepticism. This can never be achieved by humans because there is always the sceptical argument ‘what if logic itself is flawed’ you cannot ‘logically’ prove that ‘logic’ is unflawed since it is ‘logic’ which is in question. This is the shortfall of nihilism, religion and everything else that ‘we’ experience or claim to experience. [This message has been edited by Gzus, 12-25-2002]
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Gzus Inactive Member |
quote: Well, to be truthful, I neither believe nor do not believe, I abstain. I neither have nor do not have a God and my definition of God is undefined. Everything is both rational and irrational, for who can say that either is more ‘true’? I abstain from belief or non-belief and who has the right to punish me for my indecision? This is a question which cannot be denied. I cannot say that there is no dogma in this statement for the statement ‘I cannot say that there is no dogma in this statement’ is a ‘choice’ and therefore a violation of my abstention. In saying ‘I abstain’, I have violated my abstention, and yet by not stating my abstention, I have denied my indecision. The question is, how am I justified in making any choice whatsoever? And yet everything that I say or do or think is a violation of my abstention which in turn is a violation of itself.
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Gzus Inactive Member |
The problem is, that it’s a paradox. By claiming, ‘nothing is certain’, you are also saying that the statement ‘nothing is certain’ is uncertain, and yet how can you come to any other conclusion?
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Gzus Inactive Member |
The reason why we are not justified in making any decision can be summarised by a simple discussion
1: What do you see?2: I see an apple on the table 1: How do you know that your senses aren’t fooling you? 2: Well, I don’t 1: how do you know you aren’t mad? 2: I don’t 1: how do you know anything? 2: I don’t. 1: then how are you justified in saying there’s an apple on the table 2: I suppose I’m not, but how are you justified in questioning me? 1: I’m not 2: how are we justified in saying anything? 1: we’re not 2: and yet how are we justified in saying that we are not justified in saying anything? 1: we’re not 2: and yet how are we justified in saying ‘how are we justified in saying that we are not justified in saying anything?’ 1: we’re not 2: and yet how are we justified in saying ‘how are we justified in saying that we are not justified in saying that we are not justified in saying anything?’ 1: how are we justified in saying ‘we’re not’? 2: we’re not etc.. x n and yet how are we justified in denying this paradox?
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Gzus Inactive Member |
How are you justified in saying ‘that's the whole point... see, i don't have that problem... i trust my senses, i trust my reasoning abilities (such as they are), i know there's more to life than the material world... i have a worldview that allows me to make sense of such things... you don't’
And If you come up with an answer to that one, then how are you justified in saying that? And if you come up with an answer to that, then how are you justified in saying that? And etc. You can never win [This message has been edited by Gzus, 12-27-2002]
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Gzus Inactive Member |
quote: How are you justified in saying that?
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Gzus Inactive Member |
quote: Fine, you win, but I have posted a new topic which uses what you have just said to refute religions that profess damnation.
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