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Author Topic:   What would heaven be like?
forgiven
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 33 (27870)
12-25-2002 8:47 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Gzus
12-25-2002 2:59 PM


Originally posted by Gzus:
Privilege presupposes want, which presupposes purpose, which presupposes meaning etc. all of which by the way, I hold (through the reasoning of past philosophers) to be delusions of the human ‘mind’ which has no freedom. —let’s not get into that shall we.
let's do get into it... what exactly are you saying?
But I accept your point. A privilege it is not, for those who do not hold the maxim ‘freedom is good’. But the existence of sin is a necessity for freedom since if all is good, perfect, then there can be no other choice than perfection (assuming that sin has meaning and that it is not merely a delusion).
please explain how "..the existence of sin is a necessity for freedom.." ... imagine sin as a disease and not, as you seem to suggest, something we'd *choose* for ourselves if we had a choice... now imagine a place where this disease is unknown.. how does its absence limit our freedom?
I am attempting merely to find fault in the biblical interpretation of heaven by revealing a seeming violation of free will.
i don't think you've found it with this argument

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Gzus, posted 12-25-2002 2:59 PM Gzus has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by shilohproject, posted 12-26-2002 1:44 AM forgiven has replied

  
forgiven
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 33 (27913)
12-26-2002 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by shilohproject
12-26-2002 1:44 AM


excellent post shiloh
quote:
Originally posted by shilohproject:
Question: If no one is capable of a sin-free life (other than Christ, which I believe) then how is sin a function of free will? If I am unable, by definition, to fly, how can my failure to fly be held as a product of my "free will?"
there are a couple of points here... first, it's not all about flying or not flying... it's also about being born with wings...
see, it wasn't enough that Jesus never sinned... he wasn't inflicted with the disease of sin at his birth, which is every bit as important... same for adam, of course, and like adam Jesus had freedom of choice every step of the way...
you and i have free will, but it's only after we receive the new life that we are able to choose to think God's thoughts after him... that means we don't have to sin anymore, sin's power is broken... it doesn't mean we *won't* sin, simply that we don't have to...
we put "sin" in a category that makes it appear to be something we choose to do rather than a condition into which we are born... you're right, it's not about free will at all...
quote:
(Side bar: my wife just walked in and pointed out that, if you are a literalist, angels in heaven revolted against God, which would have to be "sin." So, the question that follows is: Do angels have free will? Clearly THEY had the ability to sin in heaven. Of course one could argue that angels were never bought by the blood of Christ. So I'm not sure how that plays into all this.)
-Shiloh
i'm not sure either

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by shilohproject, posted 12-26-2002 1:44 AM shilohproject has not replied

  
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