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Member (Idle past 1431 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
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Author | Topic: George W. Bush Impeachment Poll by MSNBC | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Minnemooseus Member Posts: 3945 From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior) Joined: Member Rating: 10.0 |
Subconciously, I knew that "media" footnote was going to cause a topic derailment. Please, please, please start a new "Coffee House" topic on the media theme.
Moose
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Omnivorous Member Posts: 3988 From: Adirondackia Joined: Member Rating: 7.0 |
Subconciously, I knew that "media" footnote was going to cause a topic derailment. Please, please, please start a new "Coffee House" topic on the media theme. Moose Your wish is my command, Moose. I'll add a link here by edit after I do so. Please continue this off-topic media reform discussion here: Media Reform: Systemic Change & Individual Integrity This message has been edited by Omnivorous, 12-27-2005 02:48 PM Save lives! Click here! Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC!
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Theus Inactive Member |
I fear I misrepresented myself. A failure of the system preludes a failure of the people. There will be an assortment of good and bad in any system, but the system itself will allow succesfull passage of idiots who maintain the status quo... from embedded journalists to witch burnings.
We cannot control people, nor should we when it comes to their ideals and beliefs, however much we disagree. But we can reform a system, which is where I think the best effort can be pushed. Think of it this way. Look at two systems of government, monarchy and democracy. Both, as we all know, are capable of entertaining absolute demogogues and fear-mongerers. However, in a monarchy these figures are dramatically expressed in a single ruler, sort of like winner-take-all. However, in a Democracy the hope is that a consensus will rule out such radical changes, for better or worse, and be more representative of the people's wishes and desires, for better or worse. Trying to control the people in both will not neccesarrily cure the ultimate ill, because the system that allowed their passage still exists. Rather, a far more enduring task is to reform the system. And... this leads me to a tangent but follow me on this one... in European history the monarchs often ruled nations of 5 - 7 million people, be it France, England, or Spain. The populations were a great deal smaller back in the day. Now, a given Senator will represent 10 - 15 million people in the United States. Demographically speaking, how far off from a Monarchy are we? Is it possible that the struggles of this nation's founders were to be completely undermined by population demographis (or, arguably, driven by them)? Do svidania,Theus Those that can make you believe absurdaties can make you commit atrocities - Voltaire
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Tal Member (Idle past 5703 days) Posts: 1140 From: Fort Bragg, NC Joined: |
You guys keep living in la-la land. The rest of us just continue laughing at you.
"Damn. I could build a nuclear bomb, given the fissionable material, but I can't tame my computer." (1VB)Jerome - French Rocket Scientist
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Nuggin Member (Idle past 2518 days) Posts: 2965 From: Los Angeles, CA USA Joined: |
So, W's whole deal was this, as I understand it.
It's okay that I completely went around the Congress and the judicial, since I'm only spying on "bad people". Of course, it now turns out that those "bad people" include the UN security council during it's deliboration on weither or not to go to war with Iraq. Odd, I don't remember a single terrorist threat being attibuted to the UN security council... And, for that matter, why would we spy on them unless we really really wanted to go to war with Iraq. I mean, after all, the completely wrong intelligence, the total lack of a connection to Al Queda, the lack of weapons of mass destruction, the lies about Uranium from Africa, the deliberate act of treason by Libby/Rove/whoever ordered them, why would we also need to illegally spy on the UN? Oh wait, I guess this is all still "la la land".
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macaroniandcheese  Suspended Member (Idle past 3954 days) Posts: 4258 Joined: |
wow. the un. that's nice to know.
but then neocons have a problem with them anyways. they see the un as a threat to national sovereignty.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1431 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
CNN News article Gore Assails Domestic Wiretapping Program
Former Vice President Al Gore called Monday for an independent Tinvestigation of President Bush's domestic spying program, contending the president "repeatedly and insistently" broke the law by eavesdropping on Americans without court approval. Gore charged that the administration acted without congressional authority and made a "direct assault" on a special federal court that authorizes requests to eavesdrop on Americans. One judge on the court resigned last month, voicing concerns about the National Security Agency's surveillance of e-mails and phone calls. The former vice president said that Attorney General Alberto Gonzales should name a special counsel to investigate the program, citing the attorney general's "obvious conflict of interest" as a member of the Bush Cabinet as well as the nation's top law enforcement officer. He said the spying program must be considered along with other administration actions as a constitutional power grab by the president. Gore cited imprisoning American citizens without charges in terrorism cases, mistreatment of prisoners - including torture - and seizure of individuals in foreign countries and delivering them to autocratic regimes "infamous for the cruelty of their techniques." Republicans are also concerned, from Domestic spying prompts talk of impeachment:
Sen. Arlen Specter, R-Pennsylvania, chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee, said he would conduct hearings on the unwarranted monitoring of international phone calls, faxes and emails of U.S. citizens or residents since 2002. "There are limits to what the president can do under the Constitution," Specter said on CNN’s "Late Edition." "Whether it was legal is a matter that ought to be examined." Sen. John McCain, R-Arizona, has asked why Bush failed to get the warrants from the court under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978, which set up an 11-member court to issue warrants to investigate U.S. suspects in national security cases. In recent years, the secret court has issued more than 4,000 warrants and denied fewer than a dozen requests by the administration. "Why did the president choose not to use FISA?" McCain asked on "This Week," an ABC news show. "That’s a legitimate question." Meanwhile, a member of that court, U.S. District Judge James Robertson, resigned from the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court, apparently to protest Bush’s decision to bypass the special court. According to the Washington Post, two sources familiar with his decision say that "Robertson privately expressed deep concern that the unwarranted surveillance program authorized by the president in 2001 was legally questionable and may have tainted the FISA court’s work." Former Nixon White House counsel John Dean, a Republican, expressed deep concern about the revelation and has publicly described Bush as being "the first president to admit to an impeachable offense." A new Zogby poll says:ModerateIndependent As reported by Democrats.com, the new poll, commissioned by Afterdowningstreet.org and conducted by Zogby, when asked, "If President Bush wiretapped American citizens without the approval of a judge, do you agree or disagree that Congress should consider holding him accountable through impeachment," 52% of respondents said yes, 42% said no, a 6% were undecided. The poll had a +/- 2.9 margin of error. The article on democrats.com points out that the polls the mainstream media has been using have been asking questions that lead to misleading results. What, the media distorting the results with misleading questions? Giving a false impression that 64% of the people support the government spying on civilians? The "liberal" media? Riiiiiight. Enjoy. we are limited in our ability to understand by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1493 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
You guys keep living in la-la land. The rest of us just continue laughing at you. You're laughing away in a steadily-shrinking minority of the American people. Laugh away - laugh yourself into irrelevance.
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