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Author Topic:   Should this guy have served time?
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3006 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 46 of 112 (280167)
01-20-2006 12:33 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by jar
01-20-2006 12:27 AM


Re: randman once again misrepresents what people say.
jar, for you to talk about basic honesty, imo, is frankly absurd. Either deal with the questions and the topic raised in the OP or get off the thread.

Here is one of the questions, an easy one, again. You should have no problem answering it, and if you were following the forum guidelines in dealing with on-topic discussions, you would, and moreover, if you were a basically honest and decent person, you would answer it as well, or not post on the thread in the first place.

Here it is again.

Does this type of thing deserve prison or jail-time?

Is that so hard a thing to answer?

After that, you might consider this one.

Is there a double-standard as some female teachers have been more severely prosecuted for sex with their teen students?

I will await your reply.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by jar, posted 01-20-2006 12:27 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by jar, posted 01-20-2006 12:38 AM randman has responded

  
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3006 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 47 of 112 (280168)
01-20-2006 12:36 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by nwr
01-20-2006 12:30 AM


Re: u can start with answering basic questions
Can you please show where either of those posts answers whether you feel statuatory rape for adult homosexual men and teen-age boys should, in general or even sometimes, result in prison time?

I could not find anything in those posts that stated your views on the issue, as a general issue.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by nwr, posted 01-20-2006 12:30 AM nwr has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by nwr, posted 01-20-2006 1:03 AM randman has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30935
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 48 of 112 (280169)
01-20-2006 12:38 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by randman
01-20-2006 12:33 AM


Re: randman once again misrepresents what people say.
Waiting for you to either support your assertion or retract it and appologize.

randman, there is no excuse for your complete disregard for forum guidelines and even basic honesty.

It is amazing when you can pretend that the questions in the OP have not been answered time after time, yet you feel free to make assertions about what others say.

Please see Message 2

Now when are you going to support your assertions?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by randman, posted 01-20-2006 12:33 AM randman has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by randman, posted 01-20-2006 12:41 AM jar has responded

  
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3006 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 49 of 112 (280171)
01-20-2006 12:41 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by jar
01-20-2006 12:38 AM


Mods?
Jar, this is the OP.

Pathiakis, who quit his job after school officials questioned his extracurricular contact with students, was arrested in January 2004 after a 15-year-old boy told authorities the Middleboro High School teacher raped him Dec. 23, 2003.

Massacusetts Superior Court Chief Justice Suzanne Delvecchio

Prosecutors asked Brockton Superior Court Judge Suzanne V. Delvecchio to give Pathiakis four to eight years in state prison, followed by five years probation. But she issued a suspended, 2 1/2-year jail term, followed by five years probation.

Delvecchio, the first woman to be appointed chief justice of the Massachusetts Superior Court, was honored in 2000 as the keynote speaker at the Massachusetts Gay and Lesbian Bar Association's annual dinner.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=48397

Note: the sex was consensual, but the boy was 15. Some questions:

1. Is there a double-standard as some female teachers have been more severely prosecuted for sex with their teen students?

2. Is the judge, being gay, not being objective, and should she have recused herself considering her pro-homosexual activities, even if just for appearance's sake?

3. Does this type of thing deserve prison or jail-time?

4. Is lighter sentencing in this area a move towards accepting homosexual sex between teens and adults? Historically, in some areas of the world, such as with the pashas in Afghanistan, homosexual sex between teens and adults has been somewhat socially accepted and at times widespread. Is it a fantasy for conservative outlets like WND to decry this as a general move, or an accurate reflection of where society is heading in normalizing homosexuality.

What part of this topic do you not understand? Thus far, you have studiously posted with complete disregard and avoidance of the OP, imo.

How about answering the questions?

Also, if you do not think homosexual sex between adult men and 15 year old boys is a human right, just say so. I have no desire to mischaracterize you.

Is that what you believe? Or do you think sexual rights extent to consensual sex between adults homosexuals and willing teens?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by jar, posted 01-20-2006 12:38 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by jar, posted 01-20-2006 12:44 AM randman has responded
 Message 52 by AdminAsgara, posted 01-20-2006 12:49 AM randman has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30935
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 50 of 112 (280172)
01-20-2006 12:44 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by randman
01-20-2006 12:41 AM


Re: Mods?
randman, I am still waiting for you to either support your assertions or retract them and apologize.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by randman, posted 01-20-2006 12:41 AM randman has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by randman, posted 01-20-2006 12:48 AM jar has responded

  
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3006 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 51 of 112 (280173)
01-20-2006 12:48 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by jar
01-20-2006 12:44 AM


Re: Mods?
Note: the sex was consensual, but the boy was 15. Some questions:

1. Is there a double-standard as some female teachers have been more severely prosecuted for sex with their teen students?

2. Is the judge, being gay, not being objective, and should she have recused herself considering her pro-homosexual activities, even if just for appearance's sake?

3. Does this type of thing deserve prison or jail-time?

4. Is lighter sentencing in this area a move towards accepting homosexual sex between teens and adults? Historically, in some areas of the world, such as with the pashas in Afghanistan, homosexual sex between teens and adults has been somewhat socially accepted and at times widespread. Is it a fantasy for conservative outlets like WND to decry this as a general move, or an accurate reflection of where society is heading in normalizing homosexuality.

What part of these questions do you not understand, jar?

As far as retracting my assessment of what you seem to have claimed, are you claiming you do not claim or do claim sexual rights between teen and adult males?

All you have to do is answer the question. I am perfectly willing to accept whatever you say your stance is. You avoided answering the basic issue, and behaved in a manner suggesting you feel it is a human right, or so it appears to me. I don't think I owe you an apology.

If you are saying I misunderstand your position and want to clarify and tell me what your position is, please do so. I cannot think of why any decent and honorable person would not clarify their position so as to avoid any confusion.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by jar, posted 01-20-2006 12:44 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by jar, posted 01-20-2006 1:35 AM randman has not yet responded

  
AdminAsgara
Administrator (Idle past 409 days)
Posts: 2073
From: The Universe
Joined: 10-11-2003


Message 52 of 112 (280174)
01-20-2006 12:49 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by randman
01-20-2006 12:41 AM


Re: Mods?
Rand, I know you will not accept this, but your OP was answered in msg 2.

Everyone has been saying that there is no way to make a judgment about this case without seeing the evidence.

This case was about sex with a minor, not about homo or heterosexuality. Trying to turn it into something it's not, and trying to turn your opponents into something they're not is not acting in good faith.


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    This message is a reply to:
     Message 49 by randman, posted 01-20-2006 12:41 AM randman has responded

    Replies to this message:
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    randman 
    Suspended Member (Idle past 3006 days)
    Posts: 6367
    Joined: 05-26-2005


    Message 53 of 112 (280175)
    01-20-2006 12:52 AM
    Reply to: Message 52 by AdminAsgara
    01-20-2006 12:49 AM


    Re: Mods?
    Lacking knowledge of the specifics of this case does not prevent one from answering other parts of the OP such as whether one thinks statuatory rape among homosexual adults and male teens deserves prison time.

    The fact is we don't know the specifics of nearly anything reported in the media, such as the evidence for going to Iraq, the terror threat, and all sorts of things, but that does not prevent discussion of them.

    I think I laid out in a very reasonable manner some questions for discussion.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 52 by AdminAsgara, posted 01-20-2006 12:49 AM AdminAsgara has not yet responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 58 by Nuggin, posted 01-20-2006 1:34 AM randman has not yet responded

      
    randman 
    Suspended Member (Idle past 3006 days)
    Posts: 6367
    Joined: 05-26-2005


    Message 54 of 112 (280176)
    01-20-2006 1:01 AM
    Reply to: Message 29 by berberry
    01-19-2006 11:32 PM


    Re: What if the judge was pro-heterosexual...
    Looks to me like judges are going pretty light on heterosexual offenders. Watch O'Reilly's show if you don't believe me.

    Ok, berberry, here is a transcript.

    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,182150,00.html

    A Vermont judge next door btw to Massuchusetts ruled as follows:

    Claiming he no longer believes in punishment, a Vermont judge issued a 60-day sentence to a man who confessed to repeatedly raping a girl over a four-year period, beginning when she was 7 years old.

    Do you think this was right or that such things as molesting a 7 year old should result in prison time?


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 29 by berberry, posted 01-19-2006 11:32 PM berberry has not yet responded

      
    nwr
    Member
    Posts: 5585
    From: Geneva, Illinois
    Joined: 08-08-2005


    Message 55 of 112 (280177)
    01-20-2006 1:03 AM
    Reply to: Message 47 by randman
    01-20-2006 12:36 AM


    Re: u can start with answering basic questions
    Can you please show where either of those posts answers whether you feel statuatory rape for adult homosexual men and teen-age boys should, in general or even sometimes, result in prison time?

    The appropriate sentence will depend on circumstances. You can't make rigid rules. That's why courts have discretion in setting sentences.
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 47 by randman, posted 01-20-2006 12:36 AM randman has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 56 by randman, posted 01-20-2006 1:09 AM nwr has responded

      
    randman 
    Suspended Member (Idle past 3006 days)
    Posts: 6367
    Joined: 05-26-2005


    Message 56 of 112 (280178)
    01-20-2006 1:09 AM
    Reply to: Message 55 by nwr
    01-20-2006 1:03 AM


    Re: u can start with answering basic questions
    How about in general? We never know all the specifics, period, from just reading the news, and heck, sometimes even the court never finds out all the specifics, and the specific facts that are made known are incomplete, but that doesn't mean we cannot discuss something or make a qualified judgment.

    I asked out of sincerety, trying to move the topic along. I really want to know.

    Do you and others here as well think that, in general, consensual sex between a 15 year old boy and an adult homosexual should be punishable by prison? If you say it depends on the specifics, fine. You can say it depends. Sometimes you think it is OK, or just a minor offense, and other instances, something deserving prison, or whatever you do think.

    I also asked if you thought the 60 day sentence for the man that molested the 7 year old was appropiate. Actually, it was over a 4 year period.

    What's so hard about just answering and giving your views on such things? If you don't want to do that, why be on the thread at all?

    This message has been edited by randman, 01-20-2006 01:11 AM


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 55 by nwr, posted 01-20-2006 1:03 AM nwr has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 57 by nwr, posted 01-20-2006 1:34 AM randman has not yet responded
     Message 60 by Silent H, posted 01-20-2006 7:57 AM randman has responded

      
    nwr
    Member
    Posts: 5585
    From: Geneva, Illinois
    Joined: 08-08-2005


    Message 57 of 112 (280179)
    01-20-2006 1:34 AM
    Reply to: Message 56 by randman
    01-20-2006 1:09 AM


    Re: u can start with answering basic questions
    We never know all the specifics, period, from just reading the news, and heck, sometimes even the court never finds out all the specifics, and the specific facts that are made known are incomplete, but that doesn't mean we cannot discuss something or make a qualified judgment.

    The court usually has enough to make a judgement. In these kinds of cases, a lot of evidence is witheld from the public.

    Do you and others here as well think that, in general, consensual sex between a 15 year old boy and an adult homosexual should be punishable by prison? If you say it depends on the specifics, fine.

    There is no such thing as "in general".

    In the particular case, the guy lost his job, is on probation, is on a list of sexual predators. Whether that is enough, I cannot tell, due to lack of evidence.

    I also asked if you thought the 60 day sentence for the man that molested the 7 year old was appropiate. Actually, it was over a 4 year period.

    I don't know the circumstances there, either.

    What's so hard about just answering and giving your views on such things?

    I have answered and given my views. Unlike you, I don't jump to conclusions without evidence.
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 56 by randman, posted 01-20-2006 1:09 AM randman has not yet responded

      
    Nuggin
    Member (Idle past 599 days)
    Posts: 2965
    From: Los Angeles, CA USA
    Joined: 08-09-2005


    Message 58 of 112 (280180)
    01-20-2006 1:34 AM
    Reply to: Message 53 by randman
    01-20-2006 12:52 AM


    Lurker Mode!
    I haven't even read the rest of the thread! I'm a total troll here but saw this and had to comment --

    Lacking knowledge of the specifics of this case does not prevent one from answering other parts of the OP such as whether one thinks statuatory rape among homosexual adults and male teens deserves prison time

    Is there really anyone who thinks otherwise? Seems like a rather silly question.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 53 by randman, posted 01-20-2006 12:52 AM randman has not yet responded

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    jar
    Member
    Posts: 30935
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004


    Message 59 of 112 (280181)
    01-20-2006 1:35 AM
    Reply to: Message 51 by randman
    01-20-2006 12:48 AM


    Re: Mods?
    randman

    You have made a specific assertion.

    randman writes:

    I do, but I do not think, as you apparently do, that it is necessarily a human right for gay men to have sex with male teens. I say "as you do" because I think the only logical conclusion for your reluctance to answer forthrightly is that you must think it is a human right.

    I asked you quite reasonably to support your assertion.

    jar writes:

    Please point out where I have said that adults having sex with minors is a human right. If you cannot point out where I have said that, please retract your assertion and apologize.

    Now you have implied that I believe that adults having sex with minors is a human right. I see no reason why you do not either provide the specific quotes where I said that or simply admit that you were once again misrepresenting what others say.


    Aslan is not a Tame Lion
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 51 by randman, posted 01-20-2006 12:48 AM randman has not yet responded

      
    Silent H
    Member (Idle past 3926 days)
    Posts: 7405
    From: satellite of love
    Joined: 12-11-2002


    Message 60 of 112 (280206)
    01-20-2006 7:57 AM
    Reply to: Message 56 by randman
    01-20-2006 1:09 AM


    Re: u can start with answering basic questions
    Man are you getting the treatment. I'm not sure I like the new format of EvC, which is apparently for an "audience" rather than the people trying to discuss subjects, and apparently for mods to act as they will. Sheesh.

    I got where you were going with it from the initial OP. I will agree with others that no one can make a judgement on this specific case from what we have to work with, and that progay (if she was) does not immediately translate to supporting other sexual rights. But it was and is rather obvious you were moving toward a theoretical discussion of sexual rights, whether they are correct and whether a judge can be considered biased on such cases if they themselves are in a sexual minority.

    You took a guess at my position and you were somewhat close. Yes it is a right to have sex with others that wish to have sex with you. That is what underlies homosexual sexual rights as well as those involving age or race or anything else.

    However, I also believe that parents have a right to raise their children according to their own customs, and so can and should have the ability to override the choice of their child to have sex. Obviously there must be a line where the rights of the child must override wishes of the parents, but where that is is another discussion. I don't believe it is age of majority (for voting rights for instance) and many states and nations agree with this, by setting a different line.

    In addition, there are issues when dealing with teachers and other professionals entrusted with the care of children by parents. They pretty much have a right to expect that they are not about to get "service" beyond the scope of why they sent their kid to the person, and certainly not for subjects against their will.

    Thus I see a legitimate case to be made for laws regarding age and sex, though they have essentially nothing in common with the current sex laws on the subject. The Dutch used to have one of the better systems until they recently decided to accept US law as their model.

    I don't think judges will necessarily be biased or must recuse themselves from sexual rights cases because they may be a sexual minority, or if they support sexual minorities. Personal opinion will always be an issue with judges on just about any case. The question is if they can put them away to make fair decisions based more on logic than ad hoc reasoning. It will be up to those who put and keep them in office to make such assessments based on case decision.

    Of course it is true that in a choice between having a judge biased for the defendant than against I'd prefer the former, leniency is less worrisome to me than oppression.

    Cue laugh track.


    holmes
    "...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 56 by randman, posted 01-20-2006 1:09 AM randman has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 65 by randman, posted 01-20-2006 10:21 AM Silent H has responded

        
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