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Author Topic:   A proof against ID and Creationism
bkelly
Inactive Member


Message 121 of 300 (264878)
12-01-2005 7:38 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by Christian7
12-01-2005 5:33 PM


Why do you think that is true?
I responded to you in another thread and am hoping you will respond to that post.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by Christian7, posted 12-01-2005 5:33 PM Christian7 has not replied

ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 122 of 300 (265003)
12-02-2005 8:44 AM
Reply to: Message 120 by Christian7
12-01-2005 5:33 PM


That is an assertion. If God didn't have to come from anyplace (i.e. is eternal), then why couldn't the conditions that give rise to the universe be 'eternal' also, but without the added complication of being sentient, and being concerned about what is happening on the our planet?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by Christian7, posted 12-01-2005 5:33 PM Christian7 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by Christian7, posted 12-03-2005 1:20 PM ramoss has not replied

Christian7
Member (Idle past 248 days)
Posts: 628
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 123 of 300 (265264)
12-03-2005 1:20 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by ramoss
12-02-2005 8:44 AM


It's like this. Let's say you imagine a world in your head, that is YOUR world. Now, that imagination can't just exist on it's own. A consciousness is required.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by ramoss, posted 12-02-2005 8:44 AM ramoss has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by bkelly, posted 12-03-2005 1:26 PM Christian7 has replied

bkelly
Inactive Member


Message 124 of 300 (265266)
12-03-2005 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by Christian7
12-03-2005 1:20 PM


For thoughts to be imagined in your head, of course, a consciousness must exist. For matter (atoms and the such), energy, and for worlds to exist, there is no need for anything thing other than the matter to exist. Matter and energy do not require a consciousness.
If you are certain that this is not true, tell us why.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by Christian7, posted 12-03-2005 1:20 PM Christian7 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by Christian7, posted 12-05-2005 4:09 PM bkelly has replied

bkelly
Inactive Member


Message 125 of 300 (265268)
12-03-2005 1:31 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by Jeremy
10-13-2005 12:21 PM


Questions not answered
Hello Jeremy,
While reading other posts I see that you have not responded to replies made to you. Do you still visit this forum? We would like to hear what you think of the replies that were written to you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by Jeremy, posted 10-13-2005 12:21 PM Jeremy has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by Christian7, posted 12-05-2005 4:13 PM bkelly has not replied

Christian7
Member (Idle past 248 days)
Posts: 628
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 126 of 300 (265808)
12-05-2005 4:09 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by bkelly
12-03-2005 1:26 PM


For thoughts to be imagined in your head, of course, a consciousness must exist. For matter (atoms and the such), energy, and for worlds to exist, there is no need for anything thing other than the matter to exist. Matter and energy do not require a consciousness.
If you are certain that this is not true, tell us why.
Are you exempt from the container of reality that you should know that no conscious medium is required for existance?
I wasn't saying that we are an imagination. I was saying that God is the medium by which we exist and thus we cannot put that medium in a test tube. The universe exists because of the presence of God. I was also stating that this is God's world. The lord need not the universe to exist, the universe needs the lord to exist. This world is the lord's just as your imagination and your thinking is yours? Do you only exist within your imagination or do you exist and have an imagination that results from your own thought?
God is even beyond the fabric of spacetime so God is exempt from time and space. Now I don't know how he thinks or if he even thinks chronologically when he is not bound by space-time so don't ask me.
It seems to me that since God is aumni present accross space and real time that he exists for his purpose just as his purpose exists for him. For example, suppose that you are God and you purpose requires that you are 3 different conscious persons that all are one God. Since you would exist for eternity past, and since you need not think in order, why cannot the trinity exist for the eternal past if you want to be a trinity? Now, I am not saying that the son and the father are the same person, they are two different persons, but the son is in the father and the father is in the son and they are both in the holy spirit (I believe) and the holy spirit is in them both.
For example, let's say that you and crashfrog are one. Just for example. You would both be two different people, yet you would both have the same motives and would be in total mental union able to communicate with each other. Your thinking would be identical.
That's it I am writting a book on my theories of the trinity even if they have faults in them. I am sure that during the writting of my book I will be able to clear up any logical flaws that may hit me whilst I think.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by bkelly, posted 12-03-2005 1:26 PM bkelly has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by bkelly, posted 12-05-2005 6:31 PM Christian7 has not replied
 Message 144 by ramoss, posted 01-23-2006 8:45 AM Christian7 has not replied

Christian7
Member (Idle past 248 days)
Posts: 628
From: n/a
Joined: 01-19-2004


Message 127 of 300 (265809)
12-05-2005 4:13 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by bkelly
12-03-2005 1:31 PM


Re: Questions not answered
I was suspended just as crashfrog is suspended now.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by bkelly, posted 12-03-2005 1:31 PM bkelly has not replied

bkelly
Inactive Member


Message 128 of 300 (265846)
12-05-2005 6:31 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by Christian7
12-05-2005 4:09 PM


Hello Guido,
The universe exists because of the presence of God.
Here is the core of our disagreement. I hold that the universe exists and has no need of god. I see no reason for the universe to need god. How do you know that the universe exists because of the presence of god.
Before you answer, allow me lay out a few definitions.
Belief: something that we hold to be true. It may or may not be ture, but we claim it is and behave as though it is.
Knowledge: something that has been substantiated as being true. Gravity has been verified, that the earth is round and the sun is the center of the universe has been verified.
That god created anything has not been verified. Can you verify that god created the universe?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by Christian7, posted 12-05-2005 4:09 PM Christian7 has not replied

Menachem
Inactive Member


Message 129 of 300 (280650)
01-22-2006 8:27 AM


Science has the answer!
Scientists prove the existence of the Creator everyday. The very fact that humans are able to comprehend (not just our environment) our universe is in itself proof that life has purpose. Creation, Language,
Loving, Thinking, the list goes on...are all human similarities (connections) to the Creator. Science is about seeking truth. It is the child seeking truth that is connected to the Creator. It is the scientist that cannot prove that G-d doesn't exist.
The world is a reflection of the most brilliant beautiful mind ever, with a purpose that includes revealing His/Her abilities to others by letting others replicate these traits inside a fixed environment.
This message has been edited by Menachem, 01-23-2006 12:55 AM

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by nwr, posted 01-22-2006 9:46 AM Menachem has replied

nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 130 of 300 (280671)
01-22-2006 9:46 AM
Reply to: Message 129 by Menachem
01-22-2006 8:27 AM


Re: Science has the answer!
Scientists prove the existence of the Creator everyday.
No, they don't.
You might look at the work of scientists and believe that it proves the existence of a creator. But others look at the same scientific work and conclude that it disproves the existence of a creator.
Proving or disproving a creator is not that simple, and might not even be possible.
To say that sight, speech, hearing, and smelling are the result of however many years of evolution is worse than blind faith, it is blatant lies!
I suggest you spend some time studying evolution. Read the biology literature. Don't ready the creationist web sites, for they misdescribe evolution.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by Menachem, posted 01-22-2006 8:27 AM Menachem has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by Menachem, posted 01-22-2006 12:10 PM nwr has replied

Menachem
Inactive Member


Message 131 of 300 (280724)
01-22-2006 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by nwr
01-22-2006 9:46 AM


Re: Science has the answer!
RE: "You might look at the work of scientists and believe that it proves the existence of a creator."
True.
The universe is expanding - it is creating something from nothing!
This message has been edited by Menachem, 01-22-2006 09:10 PM
This message has been edited by Menachem, 01-24-2006 12:47 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by nwr, posted 01-22-2006 9:46 AM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by nwr, posted 01-22-2006 1:21 PM Menachem has replied

nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 132 of 300 (280732)
01-22-2006 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by Menachem
01-22-2006 12:10 PM


Re: Science has the answer!
The universe is expanding - it is creating something from nothing! My only accepted explanation for this is - Infinite Creator.
Is the mass of the universe increasing?
If it isn't, then there is no creation from nothing.
I challenge you to try meditation (astral projection) to the extent where you are in a state where you are not mentally in your body.
I used to have such OBEs when I was young. But they were just psychological states. What I could see was what was visible through my physical eyes. No actual mystery here.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by Menachem, posted 01-22-2006 12:10 PM Menachem has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by Menachem, posted 01-22-2006 8:43 PM nwr has replied

Menachem
Inactive Member


Message 133 of 300 (280827)
01-22-2006 8:43 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by nwr
01-22-2006 1:21 PM


Re: Science has the answer!
Is it possible to expand something while not increasing size? Is it possible to increase size without increasing volume?
Mass: The property of a body that causes it to have weight in a gravitational field.
If you think of the universe as an expanding body of mass, then where does the body dwell? Mass is irrelevant when it comes to expansion - it is size and volume that matter. If the size of the universe is not increasing then we cannot use the word "expanding."
Expand: Extend in one or more directions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by nwr, posted 01-22-2006 1:21 PM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by nwr, posted 01-22-2006 8:59 PM Menachem has replied

nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 134 of 300 (280831)
01-22-2006 8:59 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by Menachem
01-22-2006 8:43 PM


Re: Science has the answer!
Is it possible to expand something while not increasing size? Is it possible to increase size without increasing volume?
I asked about mass, not size.
Blow up a balloon. As a thunderstorm approaches, the air pressure drops. As a result, the balloon expands. Perhaps the expansion is too little to notice, but it expands nevertheless. However its mass does not increase. Since the balloon is increasing in volume, does that mean that something is being created from nothing? And who is the creator that made it possible?
My answer would be that there is nothing being created.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by Menachem, posted 01-22-2006 8:43 PM Menachem has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by Menachem, posted 01-22-2006 9:24 PM nwr has replied

Menachem
Inactive Member


Message 135 of 300 (280840)
01-22-2006 9:24 PM
Reply to: Message 134 by nwr
01-22-2006 8:59 PM


Re: Science has the answer!
You cannot use a balloon as an example of the universe. The universe is not (as we know) bound by the effects of this earth. The universe has no thunderstorms to come against it - thunderstorms are a part of the universe - not outside it. Infinity is only just being realised by humans. Technology has shown us that this world is not as limited as we used to think.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by nwr, posted 01-22-2006 8:59 PM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by nwr, posted 01-22-2006 9:29 PM Menachem has replied
 Message 145 by ramoss, posted 01-23-2006 8:47 AM Menachem has replied

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