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Author | Topic: What we must accept if we accept evolution | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Michael Member (Idle past 4638 days) Posts: 199 From: USA Joined: |
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This message has been edited by Michael, 01-28-2006 08:11 PM
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robinrohan Inactive Member |
I'm simply intelligent enough to recognize the difference between the significance some things or some people have to me, personally Yeah, it's so great to be INTELLIGENT, isn't it? And those other folks--the Pennsylvania coal-miner, the Texas farmer--how egotistical it is for them to believe in God. What egoists they are!
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1467 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
Yeah, it's so great to be INTELLIGENT, isn't it? And those other folks--the Pennsylvania coal-miner, the Texas farmer--how egotistical it is for them to believe in God. What egoists they are! You seem to think that I'm going to have some kind of problem with the idea that the vast majority of human beings do things and hold beliefs that have a tenuous rational basis, or none at all. I would offer that the history of humanity makes it very hard indeed to argue that the majority of humans are rational at anything. You seem to think I'm going to have some problem putting forth my position as humble when I'm essentially saying I'm smarter than most people. And it's true. Put me in a room with 100 random people and odds are I do better on tests and stuff than all but 1 or 2 of them. But you tell me which is the greater ego - the conclusion that one has an IQ of 135 or so, which isn't that high but puts me in the 98th percentile at least*, and that I have the statistics and assessments to prove; or the guy who believes that the entire universe has been bequeathed to him as his playground, by a cosmic eternal entity with powers beyond imagining who could do or create anything, but seems to content himself with monitoring the minutae of what he eats, says, and who he has sex with? As infinite as you theists are always assert your God is, and as magnificent as the universe is, you tell me about the degree of conceit involved in asserting that it all exists for you. *(Just to clarify, this is probably true compared to 100 random human beings, or even 100 random westerners, but amongst this august company I doubt I'm even in the upper half.) This message has been edited by crashfrog, 01-28-2006 09:58 PM
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robinrohan Inactive Member |
As infinite as you theists are always assert your God is, and as magnificent as the universe is, you tell me about the degree of conceit involved in asserting that it all exists for you. For someone so intelligent as you are, Crashfrog, you have to be the biggest fool I ever met in my life.
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robinrohan Inactive Member |
You seem to think I'm going to have some problem putting forth my position as humble when I'm essentially saying I'm smarter than most people. And it's true. Put me in a room with 100 random people and odds are I do better on tests and stuff than all but 1 or 2 of them. But you tell me which is the greater ego - the conclusion that one has an IQ of 135 or so, which isn't that high but puts me in the 98th percentile at least*, and that I have the statistics and assessments to prove; or the guy who believes that the entire universe has been bequeathed to him as his playground, by a cosmic eternal entity with powers beyond imagining who could do or create anything, but seems to content himself with monitoring the minutae of what he eats, says, and who he has sex with? I'm very impressed with your "data," but the idea that religion is a egotistical, conceited sort of belief is not accurate. It would be if this Christian thought that he was the only one being monitored by God. But the Christian or whatever does not believe that. He believes that everyone is monitored by God. I suppose one might say that the Christian is conceited about the entire human race, but that's not egotism. Egotism is a personal view about oneself. For example, a person might be conceited about their intelligence as compared to other people. Or one might be conceited about one's appearance. Or one might think one is better than others because one has more power, or more money, or a more interesting or more exotic job. Now it is true that evolution tells us that we are no more significant than a snail. (Gastronomically speaking, we are inferior to the snail--if you care for escargot). What we do or don't do matters not in the least in the long run, in the objective run. It is of no more importance than any other natural event. But I do find it very strange that my great-to-the-nth grandfather was a lizard, large or small. That's the part I find mind-boggling. This message has been edited by robinrohan, 01-29-2006 10:54 AM
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nator Member (Idle past 2170 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: ...which can manifest as a feeling of superiority because of one's membership in a group. You mentioned several groups: people who are intelligent, people who are physically attractive, people who have a lot of political power, people who have a lot of wealth, etc. How is the feeling of superiority one has about oneself being one of God's chosen people not egotistical just because it stems from inclusion in a group? "I feel so special and superior and chosen because I am a Born Again christian, so I'm going to go to Heaven no matter what and all of these other heathens who aren't born again are going to burn in Hell."
quote: Yeah, it is pretty amazing, huh? But how is this important?
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robinrohan Inactive Member |
Not to be picky I hope, but strictly speaking, the spiritual is no less natural than the physical I'm defining nature as everything physical. Anything that is not physical, if it existed, would be other than nature. Nature can't produce anything except physical things. So the incorporeal is supernatural--meaning "other than natural."
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nator Member (Idle past 2170 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: So, according to you, the number five is supernatural?
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robinrohan Inactive Member |
"I feel so special and superior and chosen because I am a Born Again christian, so I'm going to go to Heaven no matter what and all of these other heathens who aren't born again are going to burn in Hell." In my view, if I were a believer, that would be blasphemy.
Yeah, it is pretty amazing, huh? But how is this important? It's not important. It's just an emotional reaction that I have when contemplating evolution.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I understand. I just felt obligated to make the academic point from a Christian point of view.
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robinrohan Inactive Member |
So, according to you, the number five is supernatural? The #5 is an abstraction. It doesn't exist. However, if thinking were truly incorporeal and if thoughts were real, thoughts would be supernatural. Evolution however shows us that thinking is a physical activity, so there's nothing supernatural about it.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
"I feel so special and superior and chosen because I am a Born Again christian, so I'm going to go to Heaven no matter what and all of these other heathens who aren't born again are going to burn in Hell."
In my view, if I were a believer, that would be blasphemy. Thank you. It IS blasphemy. A major tenet of the faith is that it is GIVEN to us for NO merit of our own. There's nothing better about any of us than any unbeliever. In fact Jesus called us the "offscouring of the world." The dregs. We just want you saved WITH us. Actually both Moses and Paul said they wished they could give up their salvation for the sake of the unbelieving people, if it meant they could be saved in their place.
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robinrohan Inactive Member |
We just want you saved WITH us I would think that even cocksure certainty about oneself being saved would be blasphemous--but I'm not sure if that's orthodox or not.
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Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Many of us have doubts about our salvation. Falling into sin certainly produces doubts. But there's nothing humble about such doubts. John in particular writes that he is giving us the foundations for knowing we are saved. We are exhorted to test ourselves to be sure we are saved. The term "cocksure" doesn't apply in any case, but "assurance of salvation" is definitely biblical and highly desirable.
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robinrohan Inactive Member |
Anyway, feelings of spiritual superiority to others are definitely blasphemous, I would think.
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