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Author Topic:   What we must accept if we accept evolution
Michael
Member (Idle past 4638 days)
Posts: 199
From: USA
Joined: 05-14-2005


Message 241 of 318 (282250)
01-28-2006 7:29 PM
Reply to: Message 239 by robinrohan
01-28-2006 4:36 PM


message withdrawn
This message has been edited by Michael, 01-28-2006 08:11 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 239 by robinrohan, posted 01-28-2006 4:36 PM robinrohan has not replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 242 of 318 (282256)
01-28-2006 9:32 PM
Reply to: Message 240 by crashfrog
01-28-2006 6:48 PM


Re: Just a little theory
I'm simply intelligent enough to recognize the difference between the significance some things or some people have to me, personally
Yeah, it's so great to be INTELLIGENT, isn't it? And those other folks--the Pennsylvania coal-miner, the Texas farmer--how egotistical it is for them to believe in God. What egoists they are!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by crashfrog, posted 01-28-2006 6:48 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 243 by crashfrog, posted 01-28-2006 9:56 PM robinrohan has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 243 of 318 (282259)
01-28-2006 9:56 PM
Reply to: Message 242 by robinrohan
01-28-2006 9:32 PM


Re: Just a little theory
Yeah, it's so great to be INTELLIGENT, isn't it? And those other folks--the Pennsylvania coal-miner, the Texas farmer--how egotistical it is for them to believe in God. What egoists they are!
You seem to think that I'm going to have some kind of problem with the idea that the vast majority of human beings do things and hold beliefs that have a tenuous rational basis, or none at all.
I would offer that the history of humanity makes it very hard indeed to argue that the majority of humans are rational at anything.
You seem to think I'm going to have some problem putting forth my position as humble when I'm essentially saying I'm smarter than most people. And it's true. Put me in a room with 100 random people and odds are I do better on tests and stuff than all but 1 or 2 of them. But you tell me which is the greater ego - the conclusion that one has an IQ of 135 or so, which isn't that high but puts me in the 98th percentile at least*, and that I have the statistics and assessments to prove; or the guy who believes that the entire universe has been bequeathed to him as his playground, by a cosmic eternal entity with powers beyond imagining who could do or create anything, but seems to content himself with monitoring the minutae of what he eats, says, and who he has sex with?
As infinite as you theists are always assert your God is, and as magnificent as the universe is, you tell me about the degree of conceit involved in asserting that it all exists for you.
*(Just to clarify, this is probably true compared to 100 random human beings, or even 100 random westerners, but amongst this august company I doubt I'm even in the upper half.)
This message has been edited by crashfrog, 01-28-2006 09:58 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by robinrohan, posted 01-28-2006 9:32 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 244 by robinrohan, posted 01-28-2006 11:03 PM crashfrog has replied
 Message 245 by robinrohan, posted 01-29-2006 11:54 AM crashfrog has not replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 244 of 318 (282264)
01-28-2006 11:03 PM
Reply to: Message 243 by crashfrog
01-28-2006 9:56 PM


Re: Just a little theory
As infinite as you theists are always assert your God is, and as magnificent as the universe is, you tell me about the degree of conceit involved in asserting that it all exists for you.
For someone so intelligent as you are, Crashfrog, you have to be the biggest fool I ever met in my life.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by crashfrog, posted 01-28-2006 9:56 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 259 by crashfrog, posted 01-29-2006 12:58 PM robinrohan has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 245 of 318 (282290)
01-29-2006 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 243 by crashfrog
01-28-2006 9:56 PM


Re: Just a little theory
You seem to think I'm going to have some problem putting forth my position as humble when I'm essentially saying I'm smarter than most people. And it's true. Put me in a room with 100 random people and odds are I do better on tests and stuff than all but 1 or 2 of them. But you tell me which is the greater ego - the conclusion that one has an IQ of 135 or so, which isn't that high but puts me in the 98th percentile at least*, and that I have the statistics and assessments to prove; or the guy who believes that the entire universe has been bequeathed to him as his playground, by a cosmic eternal entity with powers beyond imagining who could do or create anything, but seems to content himself with monitoring the minutae of what he eats, says, and who he has sex with?
I'm very impressed with your "data," but the idea that religion is a egotistical, conceited sort of belief is not accurate. It would be if this Christian thought that he was the only one being monitored by God. But the Christian or whatever does not believe that. He believes that everyone is monitored by God. I suppose one might say that the Christian is conceited about the entire human race, but that's not egotism. Egotism is a personal view about oneself. For example, a person might be conceited about their intelligence as compared to other people. Or one might be conceited about one's appearance. Or one might think one is better than others because one has more power, or more money, or a more interesting or more exotic job.
Now it is true that evolution tells us that we are no more significant than a snail. (Gastronomically speaking, we are inferior to the snail--if you care for escargot). What we do or don't do matters not in the least in the long run, in the objective run. It is of no more importance than any other natural event.
But I do find it very strange that my great-to-the-nth grandfather was a lizard, large or small. That's the part I find mind-boggling.
This message has been edited by robinrohan, 01-29-2006 10:54 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by crashfrog, posted 01-28-2006 9:56 PM crashfrog has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 246 by nator, posted 01-29-2006 12:05 PM robinrohan has replied
 Message 268 by babelfish, posted 01-29-2006 2:30 PM robinrohan has not replied
 Message 273 by nwr, posted 01-29-2006 4:27 PM robinrohan has not replied
 Message 278 by sidelined, posted 01-29-2006 5:47 PM robinrohan has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 246 of 318 (282291)
01-29-2006 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 245 by robinrohan
01-29-2006 11:54 AM


Re: Just a little theory
quote:
Egotism is a personal view about oneself.
...which can manifest as a feeling of superiority because of one's membership in a group. You mentioned several groups:
people who are intelligent, people who are physically attractive, people who have a lot of political power, people who have a lot of wealth, etc.
How is the feeling of superiority one has about oneself being one of God's chosen people not egotistical just because it stems from inclusion in a group?
"I feel so special and superior and chosen because I am a Born Again christian, so I'm going to go to Heaven no matter what and all of these other heathens who aren't born again are going to burn in Hell."
quote:
But I do find it very strange that my great-to-the-nth grandfather was a lizard, large or small. That's the part I find mind-boggling.
Yeah, it is pretty amazing, huh?
But how is this important?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by robinrohan, posted 01-29-2006 11:54 AM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 249 by robinrohan, posted 01-29-2006 12:17 PM nator has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 247 of 318 (282294)
01-29-2006 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 225 by Faith
01-27-2006 6:32 PM


Re: general statement
Not to be picky I hope, but strictly speaking, the spiritual is no less natural than the physical
I'm defining nature as everything physical. Anything that is not physical, if it existed, would be other than nature. Nature can't produce anything except physical things. So the incorporeal is supernatural--meaning "other than natural."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 225 by Faith, posted 01-27-2006 6:32 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 248 by nator, posted 01-29-2006 12:15 PM robinrohan has replied
 Message 250 by Faith, posted 01-29-2006 12:17 PM robinrohan has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 248 of 318 (282296)
01-29-2006 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 247 by robinrohan
01-29-2006 12:12 PM


Re: general statement
quote:
I'm defining nature as everything physical. Anything that is not physical, if it existed, would be other than nature. Nature can't produce anything except physical things. So the incorporeal is supernatural--meaning "other than natural."
So, according to you, the number five is supernatural?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 247 by robinrohan, posted 01-29-2006 12:12 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 251 by robinrohan, posted 01-29-2006 12:19 PM nator has not replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 249 of 318 (282297)
01-29-2006 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 246 by nator
01-29-2006 12:05 PM


Re: Just a little theory
"I feel so special and superior and chosen because I am a Born Again christian, so I'm going to go to Heaven no matter what and all of these other heathens who aren't born again are going to burn in Hell."
In my view, if I were a believer, that would be blasphemy.
Yeah, it is pretty amazing, huh?
But how is this important?
It's not important. It's just an emotional reaction that I have when contemplating evolution.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by nator, posted 01-29-2006 12:05 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 252 by Faith, posted 01-29-2006 12:24 PM robinrohan has replied
 Message 269 by nator, posted 01-29-2006 3:32 PM robinrohan has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 250 of 318 (282298)
01-29-2006 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 247 by robinrohan
01-29-2006 12:12 PM


Re: general statement
I understand. I just felt obligated to make the academic point from a Christian point of view.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 247 by robinrohan, posted 01-29-2006 12:12 PM robinrohan has not replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 251 of 318 (282299)
01-29-2006 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 248 by nator
01-29-2006 12:15 PM


Re: general statement
So, according to you, the number five is supernatural?
The #5 is an abstraction. It doesn't exist. However, if thinking were truly incorporeal and if thoughts were real, thoughts would be supernatural. Evolution however shows us that thinking is a physical activity, so there's nothing supernatural about it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by nator, posted 01-29-2006 12:15 PM nator has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 252 of 318 (282300)
01-29-2006 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 249 by robinrohan
01-29-2006 12:17 PM


Re: Just a little theory
"I feel so special and superior and chosen because I am a Born Again christian, so I'm going to go to Heaven no matter what and all of these other heathens who aren't born again are going to burn in Hell."
In my view, if I were a believer, that would be blasphemy.
Thank you. It IS blasphemy. A major tenet of the faith is that it is GIVEN to us for NO merit of our own. There's nothing better about any of us than any unbeliever. In fact Jesus called us the "offscouring of the world." The dregs.
We just want you saved WITH us. Actually both Moses and Paul said they wished they could give up their salvation for the sake of the unbelieving people, if it meant they could be saved in their place.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by robinrohan, posted 01-29-2006 12:17 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 253 by robinrohan, posted 01-29-2006 12:27 PM Faith has replied
 Message 270 by nator, posted 01-29-2006 3:34 PM Faith has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 253 of 318 (282302)
01-29-2006 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 252 by Faith
01-29-2006 12:24 PM


Re: Just a little theory
We just want you saved WITH us
I would think that even cocksure certainty about oneself being saved would be blasphemous--but I'm not sure if that's orthodox or not.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 252 by Faith, posted 01-29-2006 12:24 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 254 by Faith, posted 01-29-2006 12:31 PM robinrohan has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 254 of 318 (282303)
01-29-2006 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 253 by robinrohan
01-29-2006 12:27 PM


Re: Just a little theory
Many of us have doubts about our salvation. Falling into sin certainly produces doubts. But there's nothing humble about such doubts. John in particular writes that he is giving us the foundations for knowing we are saved. We are exhorted to test ourselves to be sure we are saved. The term "cocksure" doesn't apply in any case, but "assurance of salvation" is definitely biblical and highly desirable.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by robinrohan, posted 01-29-2006 12:27 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 255 by robinrohan, posted 01-29-2006 12:34 PM Faith has replied
 Message 257 by robinrohan, posted 01-29-2006 12:49 PM Faith has replied
 Message 260 by iano, posted 01-29-2006 1:01 PM Faith has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 255 of 318 (282304)
01-29-2006 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 254 by Faith
01-29-2006 12:31 PM


Re: Just a little theory
Anyway, feelings of spiritual superiority to others are definitely blasphemous, I would think.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 254 by Faith, posted 01-29-2006 12:31 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 256 by Faith, posted 01-29-2006 12:35 PM robinrohan has not replied

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