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Author Topic:   Are mutations enough to explain natural selection?
Eximius
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 95 (28181)
12-31-2002 7:05 AM


Let me begin by saying that I am an evolutionist. I understand that if a mutation is favourable to an organism, that organism will tend to produce more offspring and the mutation will spread. But surely most mutations (apart from the odd useful macromutation) wouldn't help an organism so much that it increases its chances of survival or reproduction.
For example, if a mutation gave a bird a slightly longer wingspan, the bird might fly more efficiently and catch more food, but does this ensure that the gene for long wing is passed on more than the gene for short wing? A bird that caught 9 fish a day would probably reproduce just as much as a bird that caught 10 fish a day.
Perhaps natural selection is only effective when resources are limited and even slightly helpful mutations mean the difference between life and death, or between reproduction and lack of.
Thoughts?
------------------
"I'm rather less interested in what people think than in what's true"
- Richard Dawkins

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by peter borger, posted 01-01-2003 3:09 AM Eximius has not replied
 Message 58 by Satcomm, posted 01-10-2003 9:54 AM Eximius has not replied

  
Eximius
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 95 (28193)
12-31-2002 10:36 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by Gzus
12-31-2002 9:42 AM


Let me use another example that doesn't involve competition. How would natural selection favour a slightly larger skin flap in colugos, gliding possums, etc if an advantageous mutation merely allowed an individual to glide an extra metre?
------------------
"I'm rather less interested in what people think than in what's true"
- Richard Dawkins

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Gzus, posted 12-31-2002 9:42 AM Gzus has not replied

  
Eximius
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 95 (28232)
12-31-2002 10:52 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Fred Williams
12-31-2002 5:41 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Fred Williams:
The rate at which a mutation can fix in a population is governed by its capacity for reproduction.
I understand that. The more advantageous a mutation is, the more likely the carrier of the mutation will survive to reproduction.
quote:
Originally posted by Fred Williams:
The only way to reduce this number is to increase the selective value, but when you do this the burden on reproductive capacity increases!
That's what I don't understand. Please help me out.
I apologise if this seems like a stupid question because it's obvious that most of the people on this forum have a greater understanding of this than me but I really want to understand how this works.
Thanks.
------------------
"I'm rather less interested in what people think than in what's true"
- Richard Dawkins

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Fred Williams, posted 12-31-2002 5:41 PM Fred Williams has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Fred Williams, posted 01-02-2003 12:30 PM Eximius has not replied

  
Eximius
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 95 (28233)
12-31-2002 10:53 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Fred Williams
12-31-2002 5:41 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Fred Williams:
The rate at which a mutation can fix in a population is governed by its capacity for reproduction.
I understand that. The more advantageous a mutation is, the more likely the carrier of the mutation will survive to reproduction.
quote:
Originally posted by Fred Williams:
The only way to reduce this number is to increase the selective value, but when you do this the burden on reproductive capacity increases!
That's what I don't understand. Please help me out.
I apologise if this seems like a stupid question because it's obvious that most of the people on this forum have a greater understanding of this than me but I really want to understand how this works.
Thanks.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Fred Williams, posted 12-31-2002 5:41 PM Fred Williams has not replied

  
Eximius
Inactive Member


Message 25 of 95 (28337)
01-02-2003 11:28 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by peter borger
01-02-2003 9:38 PM


Thanks Fred for your clarification and everyone else for the responses. Your answers have been very helpful but to keep the discussion going and to stop the topic straying too far into areas I am not very familiar with (I again apologise for my shortcomings) I would like to reiterate my original question:
How does natural selection favour a mutation that, while advantageous, is not likely to increase the carriers chance of survival or reproduction.
For evolution to work, every transitional step between, say, the light-sensitive skin-patch and the human or cephalopod eye has to be not only advantageous but advantageous *enough* to increase the individuals chance of reproduction. I sometimes have trouble seeing how that could happen, but I suppose it's like Gzus said and every time an adaptation evolves the situation is unique, so there is no single answer.
As for the Dawkins quote, I didn't read it, it's from a television debate, and I agree that you don't need a great understanding of genetics to understand evolution. Darwin is proof of that. Besides that, I admire scientists that are comprehensible and interesting to the layman and I think Dawkins fits this category.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by peter borger, posted 01-02-2003 9:38 PM peter borger has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by John, posted 01-03-2003 9:00 AM Eximius has not replied
 Message 32 by peter borger, posted 01-04-2003 12:10 AM Eximius has not replied

  
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