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Author
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Topic: Biblical Long Term Solution To The Following Diseases
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Funkaloyd
Inactive Member
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Message 91 of 111 (281867)
01-26-2006 11:30 PM
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Reply to: Message 89 by Buzsaw
01-26-2006 10:47 PM
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Re: General Reply
Rape is fornication, in most cases. If you can't stop all non-marital rape, then you don't have a chance in Hell of stopping all instances of fornication. This message has been edited by Funkaloyd, Fri, 27-Jan-2006 04:33 PM
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 89 by Buzsaw, posted 01-26-2006 10:47 PM | | Buzsaw has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 93 by Buzsaw, posted 01-26-2006 11:51 PM | | Funkaloyd has not replied |
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member
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Re: General Reply
AdminWounded writes: Except me and NWR of course, you should have put your Admin hat on so you too might have been imbued with the neccessary prophetic powers. .....Or better yet, maybe I should have put my Admin hat on and placed my own 'is it science' topic in the Is It Science Forum. 
Gravity is God's glue that holds his universe together.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 65 by AdminWounded, posted 01-24-2006 4:52 PM | | AdminWounded has not replied |
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member
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Message 93 of 111 (281879)
01-26-2006 11:51 PM
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Reply to: Message 91 by Funkaloyd
01-26-2006 11:30 PM
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Re: General Reply
Funkaloyd writes: Rape is fornication, in most cases. If you can't stop all non-marital rape, then you don't have a chance in Hell of stopping all instances of fornication. Thanks for trying, my friend, but given the rape offense was also punishable by death, a very miniscule percentage of deviations would be by rape. This would not likely be a long haul problem. Even without the capital punishment, a very small percentage of deviations or SDIs would be rape related diseases.
Gravity is God's glue that holds his universe together.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 91 by Funkaloyd, posted 01-26-2006 11:30 PM | | Funkaloyd has not replied |
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1485 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: 03-20-2003
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Message 94 of 111 (281946)
01-27-2006 9:30 AM
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Reply to: Message 93 by Buzsaw
01-26-2006 11:51 PM
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Re: General Reply
Thanks for trying, my friend, but given the rape offense was also punishable by death, a very miniscule percentage of deviations would be by rape. This would not likely be a long haul problem. Even without the capital punishment, a very small percentage of deviations or SDIs would be rape related diseases. But you acknowledge that rape is going to occur (since the death penalty has never been shown to be a deterrent), and that diseases might be passed that way. Abstinence doesn't stop rape, prohibitions against "fornication" (another slang term) or gay sex don't stop rape, and the death penalty doesn't stop anything. So your "Biblical model", even if it could be followed, doesn't live up to the hype. And why should we be surprised? Again, this is the model that has promulgated for many, many centuries, with the result that STD's spread unchecked. Even in our modern setting, there's absolutely no evidence that an abstinence-only message has any effectiveness in preventing the spread of STD's among teens; in fact, every indication is the opposite - while such "education" often does delay the onset of intercourse by a year or two, at the time that they finally do begin having intercourse, they're much less likely to do so in ways that prevent the contraction of disease. Your "Biblical model" has no medical validity. This is the position of the CDC, the AMA, and anybody else motivated by a need to retard the spread of debilitating STDs and not by a need to promulgate sexual mores that never ever had the effect you claim they did.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 93 by Buzsaw, posted 01-26-2006 11:51 PM | | Buzsaw has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 95 by Buzsaw, posted 01-27-2006 12:22 PM | | crashfrog has replied |
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member
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Message 95 of 111 (281978)
01-27-2006 12:22 PM
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Reply to: Message 94 by crashfrog
01-27-2006 9:30 AM
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Re: General Reply
CF, please reread the OP. If you want to discuss rape, I repeat: start your own thread. I've shown where what you want to discuss has no significant bearing on the OP of this thread.
Gravity is God's glue that holds his universe together.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 94 by crashfrog, posted 01-27-2006 9:30 AM | | crashfrog has replied |
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1485 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: 03-20-2003
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Message 96 of 111 (281990)
01-27-2006 1:35 PM
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Reply to: Message 95 by Buzsaw
01-27-2006 12:22 PM
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Re: General Reply
CF, please reread the OP. If you want to discuss rape, I repeat: start your own thread. I've shown where what you want to discuss has no significant bearing on the OP of this thread. No, you haven't. You've simply stated that you have. Rape is relevant. It's completely on topic, because it's a kind of sexual intercourse that prohibitions against fornication, adultery, and "sodomy" doesn't prevent. Of course, fornication, adultery, and "sodomy" are acts of intercourse that prohibitions against fornication, adultery, and "sodomy" don't prevent, either. Like I said, it's completely on topic. It's just one more weakness of your argument that you don't care to address.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 95 by Buzsaw, posted 01-27-2006 12:22 PM | | Buzsaw has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 97 by Buzsaw, posted 01-27-2006 8:49 PM | | crashfrog has replied |
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member
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Message 97 of 111 (282055)
01-27-2006 8:49 PM
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Reply to: Message 96 by crashfrog
01-27-2006 1:35 PM
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Alleged Rape Significance
Copy and paste exactly what in the OP to which your rape stuff applies and I'll respond. Keep in mind that your points must factor significantly in the long term as per the topic title.
Gravity is God's glue that holds his universe together.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 96 by crashfrog, posted 01-27-2006 1:35 PM | | crashfrog has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 100 by crashfrog, posted 01-27-2006 11:14 PM | | Buzsaw has not replied |
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nator
Member (Idle past 2188 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
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Message 98 of 111 (282066)
01-27-2006 9:49 PM
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Reply to: Message 93 by Buzsaw
01-26-2006 11:51 PM
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Re: General Reply
quote:
Thanks for trying, my friend, but given the rape offense was also punishable by death,
Not in many cases: Lev 19:20 And whosoever lieth carnally with a woman, that is a bondmaid, betrothed to an husband, and not at all redeemed, nor freedom given her; she shall be scourged; they shall not be put to death, because she was not free. Deut 22:25 But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die. 26 But unto the damsel thou shalt do nothing; there is in the damsel no sin worthy of death: for as when a man riseth against his neighbour, and slayeth him, even so is this matter: 27 For he found her in the field, and the betrothed damsel cried, and there was none to save her. 28 If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found; 29 Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days. So, you see that under biblical rules, men can rape women though sometimes they are killed for doing so, sometimes they actually are compelled to marry their victim.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 93 by Buzsaw, posted 01-26-2006 11:51 PM | | Buzsaw has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 99 by Buzsaw, posted 01-27-2006 10:42 PM | | nator has not replied |
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member
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Message 99 of 111 (282076)
01-27-2006 10:42 PM
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Reply to: Message 98 by nator
01-27-2006 9:49 PM
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Alleged Rape Significance
Here is my statement in context. I implied that the incidence of it would not apply as a significant factor relative to the topic OP.
buzsaw writes: Thanks for trying, my friend, but given the rape offense was also punishable by death, a very miniscule percentage of deviations would be by rape. This would not likely be a long haul problem. Even without the capital punishment, a very small percentage of deviations or SDIs would be rape related diseases. Again, as I have already stated; "Copy and paste exactly what in the OP to which your rape stuff applies and I'll respond. Keep in mind that your points must factor significantly in the long term as per the topic title."
Gravity is God's glue that holds his universe together.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 98 by nator, posted 01-27-2006 9:49 PM | | nator has not replied |
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1485 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: 03-20-2003
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Message 100 of 111 (282081)
01-27-2006 11:14 PM
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Reply to: Message 97 by Buzsaw
01-27-2006 8:49 PM
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Re: Alleged Rape Significance
Copy and paste exactly what in the OP to which your rape stuff applies and I'll respond. Your OP wasn't all that long in the first place, so it's not clear to me how you could have gotten confused in the intervening time between then and now, but if you insist:
quote:
Biblical Solution = Abstinence from adultery, fornication and sodomy. Is this medically scientific? This purpose of this thread is not to preach morality, but to examine the medical scientific aspects of these Biblical inhibitions relative to the above stated diseases of humanity, given that practitioners often advocate various abstinences in treatment and prevention of diseases.
The relevance of rape is that its a form of intercourse, and therefore exposure to disease, that abstinence doesn't prevent. Voluntarily bstaining from intercourse, no matter how hard you try, doesn't prevent involuntary intercourse.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 97 by Buzsaw, posted 01-27-2006 8:49 PM | | Buzsaw has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 104 by Funkaloyd, posted 01-30-2006 8:05 PM | | crashfrog has not replied |
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Chiroptera
Inactive Member
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Message 101 of 111 (282693)
01-30-2006 6:33 PM
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Reply to: Message 88 by Buzsaw
01-26-2006 10:43 PM
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Re: General Reply
Sorry for the delay in response, buz. I only just now noticed that you replied to my last message on this. -
quote:
1. Say what? Complete promiscuity to complete celibacy? How did you read this into my OP or subsequent posts?
Because that is the topic of your OP. Here is your OP, quoted:
Aids Genital Herpes Syphilis Gonorrhea Hepatitis B Human Herpes Virus 8 (HHV-8) Biblical Solution = Abstinence from adultery, fornication and sodomy. Is this medically scientific? To discuss how "medically scientific" something is, you need to discuss what the problem is, what the possible alternative solutions are, the range of options, and what exactly it is that one is trying to accomplish. -
quote:
2. Regular use of prophylatics to achieve prophylaxis (I assume that's what you mean by "regular use of") is off topic here. This thread is about abstinence relative to prophylaxis/prevention of disease.
The implication in your OP is that abstinence or chastity is somehow a superior solution to some problem. That can only be determined if alternatives are considered. -
quote:
3. I have chosen this arbitrary set of behavior because this is the Biblical one which I wish to address as to whether it is medically scientific for the long term prevention of STDs listed in the OP.
But if this Biblical "solution" is not compared to anything else, then there is no "medical scientific" validity. -
quote:
Without going back, I believe it I was responding to someone as to how this Levitical mandate was relative to prevention of disease and that God implemented it as a factor in the preservation of a nation to become his kingdom on earth.
First of all, this was not in your OP. Second, it is not within the domain of medical science to discuss factors in the preservation of a nation to become any god's kingdom on earth. As far as the "medical scientificly" validity of chastity as a preventitive of STDs, one needs to discuss other methods of prevention as well as the relative risks, as well as the amount of risk on wants to assume. If one wants to discuss what should be done to "preserve a nation to become a god's kingdom on earth", assuming that such a god exists, and assuming that we know what that god actually wants, then the discussion is no longer in the domain of "medical science", and this thread belongs in a theology forum.
"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 88 by Buzsaw, posted 01-26-2006 10:43 PM | | Buzsaw has not replied |
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SuperNintendo Chalmers
Member (Idle past 5852 days) Posts: 772 From: Bartlett, IL, USA Joined: 12-27-2005
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Message 102 of 111 (282694)
01-30-2006 6:43 PM
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Quick Question
Excuse my ignorance..... but does it really say "no sex before marriage" in the bible? And if so, in what context?
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 103 by jar, posted 01-30-2006 7:13 PM | | SuperNintendo Chalmers has not replied | | | Message 105 by Buzsaw, posted 01-30-2006 8:49 PM | | SuperNintendo Chalmers has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Re: Quick Question
Excuse my ignorance..... but does it really say "no sex before marriage" in the bible? And if so, in what context? As is usual, you can find almost anything you want in the Bible. For the most part, premarital sex is really not a bad thing, except for the woman. In some cases it can be very bad for the chick, but for the guy, just another day. Exodus 22:16-17
16 "If a man seduces a virgin who is not pledged to be married and sleeps with her, he must pay the bride-price, and she shall be his wife. 17 If her father absolutely refuses to give her to him, he must still pay the bride-price for virgins. Note, this is the same requirement as if the guy borrowed an animal and it got hurt or killed while the owner is not present.
14 "If a man borrows an animal from his neighbor and it is injured or dies while the owner is not present, he must make restitution. In Deuteronomy 22 they get into some of the what ifs.
13 If a man takes a wife and, after lying with her, dislikes her 14 and slanders her and gives her a bad name, saying, "I married this woman, but when I approached her, I did not find proof of her virginity," 15 then the girl's father and mother shall bring proof that she was a virgin to the town elders at the gate. 16 The girl's father will say to the elders, "I gave my daughter in marriage to this man, but he dislikes her. 17 Now he has slandered her and said, 'I did not find your daughter to be a virgin.' But here is the proof of my daughter's virginity." Then her parents shall display the cloth before the elders of the town, 18 and the elders shall take the man and punish him. 19 They shall fine him a hundred shekels of silver and give them to the girl's father, because this man has given an Israelite virgin a bad name. She shall continue to be his wife; he must not divorce her as long as he lives. 20 If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the girl's virginity can be found, 21 she shall be brought to the door of her father's house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done a disgraceful thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father's house. You must purge the evil from among you. 22 If a man is found sleeping with another man's wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die. You must purge the evil from Israel. 23 If a man happens to meet in a town a virgin pledged to be married and he sleeps with her, 24 you shall take both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to death”the girl because she was in a town and did not scream for help, and the man because he violated another man's wife. You must purge the evil from among you. 25 But if out in the country a man happens to meet a girl pledged to be married and rapes her, only the man who has done this shall die. 26 Do nothing to the girl; she has committed no sin deserving death. This case is like that of someone who attacks and murders his neighbor, 27 for the man found the girl out in the country, and though the betrothed girl screamed, there was no one to rescue her. 28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29 he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver. [c] He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives. 30 A man is not to marry his father's wife; he must not dishonor his father's bed. So you have to be careful where you boff the virgins. But note, if the girl is not a virgin, then all bets are off. Just make sure she is not yet under contract. Bopping someone elses virgin is an insult to the owner. This message has been edited by jar, 01-30-2006 06:14 PM
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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Funkaloyd
Inactive Member
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Message 104 of 111 (282699)
01-30-2006 8:05 PM
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Reply to: Message 100 by crashfrog
01-27-2006 11:14 PM
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Sex is fornication, too
Not only is it a form of intercourse, but (except in the case of marital-rape) it's also fornication, and sometimes sodomy. Buz, you're getting a reputation as "the guy who screams 'Off Topic!' whenever people bring up relevant counter-arguments". Really, you might as well claim that sex is off topic. After all, the word "sex" doesn't come up in the OP, does it?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 100 by crashfrog, posted 01-27-2006 11:14 PM | | crashfrog has not replied |
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member
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Re: Quick Question
Mini-Ditka writes: Excuse my ignorance..... but does it really say "no sex before marriage" in the bible? And if so, in what context? I'm not aware of any scriptures in which God condones pre-marital sex. In the texts which Jar quotes, there's no condoning of it, but different degrees of punishment/consequence.
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