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Author Topic:   What we must accept if we accept evolution Part 2
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 46 of 301 (282724)
01-30-2006 9:39 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by jar
01-30-2006 9:37 PM


Re: At least one point was pretty conclusively falsified...
What a bunch of hot air, jar. You have proved nothing.
I have said that I believe in the Biblical GOD and also accept the TOE. Therefore your assertion is refuted.
YOUR belief is supposed to be proof? I will restrain my hilarity.
You don't believe in the God of the Bible. You believe in a God that is not based on the Bible but on rejecting half the Bible and picking out only what you like about it. That is not the Biblical God.
However, go ahead and define this God you call the Biblical God and it will be seen that it is not the Biblical God of traditional Christianity, Who IS incompatible with the ToE.
This message has been edited by Faith, 01-30-2006 09:40 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by jar, posted 01-30-2006 9:37 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by jar, posted 01-30-2006 9:49 PM Faith has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 47 of 301 (282725)
01-30-2006 9:49 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Faith
01-30-2006 9:39 PM


Re: At least one point was pretty conclusively falsified...
Faith, we are on the Science side where you are expected to try to support your assertions.
You said that it is impossible to believe in the Biblical GOD and accept the TOE.
I provided evidence that at least one person, me, believes in the Biblical Christian GOD and also accepts the TOE.
Pastor James Aalgaard of St. Paul Lutheran Church in Ontario, OR also believes in the Biblical Christian GOD and accepts the TOE.
So I have provided additional PROOF that your assertion has been falsified.
Would you like additional proof? I can post over 10,000 additional examples you know and will be happy to do so should you not accept that your assertion has been falsified.
No matter what you want to believe, your assertion is as daid as YEC. Two plus two does not equal five no matter what you believe.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Faith, posted 01-30-2006 9:39 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by Faith, posted 01-30-2006 10:19 PM jar has replied
 Message 79 by Modulous, posted 01-31-2006 12:50 AM jar has replied

Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3978
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 48 of 301 (282726)
01-30-2006 10:15 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Faith
01-30-2006 8:42 PM


Re: atheism / any God but Biblical God
OK, I'll accept that. It's just a matter of modifying the OP list again. So what logically follows from the ToE is 1) No God 2) An evil God, or 3) an Impotent God. Or maybe it should be summed up:
Either no God or any God but the omniscient omnipotent God of Love of the Bible.
Well, part of my point, Faith, was that if we have free will, then the unfolding of the universe is not omnipotently ordered.
We can only posit an Evil God (in the context of this logical construct) if that God is omnipotent and thus could have ordered the universe so that pain and suffering were unnecessary.
But if we turn that logic on the Biblical God, then we have to ask: is there pain and suffering in the world because the Biblical God is evil? Because the Biblical God is not omnipotent? Because the Biblical God has voluntarily sacrificed/restrained omnipotence for a free Creation?
It gets complicated well beyond an either-or.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Faith, posted 01-30-2006 8:42 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by Faith, posted 01-30-2006 10:46 PM Omnivorous has not replied

GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 49 of 301 (282727)
01-30-2006 10:15 PM


Jumping In
This has been a very long thread and I don't have the time to read it all so I'll post and if I've crossed the line by doing so I apologize.
I'm not a biologist so I am unable to form an opinion as to the veracity of the TofE. I believe that the Bible is a book of spiritual truth but I don't accept that it is a science text.
As I understand evolution it occurs because of a series of genetic mutations.If one is an Atheist then one believes that these mutations accured by natural means. If one is a Theist then the changes would have been caused by an intelligent designer.
As I see it, the TofE is agnostic. Once you go beyond that it is a faith issue.

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Faith, posted 01-30-2006 10:23 PM GDR has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 50 of 301 (282728)
01-30-2006 10:19 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by jar
01-30-2006 9:49 PM


I REQUEST MODERATOR ATTENTION
Faith, we are on the Science side where you are expected to try to support your assertions.
I did not assert, I clearly supported it with reasoning, and not only that, I pointed out that your supposed "refutation," which is merely that you believe in what you consider to be the Biblical God and also in the ToE , to be as far from a reasoned argument as one can get. And unbelievably arrogant too, as if what YOU believe determines all truth.
You are out of order to keep repeating your false accusation, jar, and I request INDEPENDENT OBJECTIVE moderator attention to this.
I think this all occurred within a few recent posts but if necessary I will track down the relevant ones.
This message has been edited by Faith, 01-30-2006 10:20 PM
This message has been edited by Faith, 01-30-2006 10:27 PM
This message has been edited by Faith, 01-30-2006 10:27 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by jar, posted 01-30-2006 9:49 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by jar, posted 01-30-2006 10:28 PM Faith has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 51 of 301 (282729)
01-30-2006 10:23 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by GDR
01-30-2006 10:15 PM


Re: Jumping In
As I see it, the TofE is agnostic. Once you go beyond that it is a faith issue.
To catch you up with some of the arguments to this point:
The ToE is incompatible with the idea of an omnipotent omniscient good God because the ToE takes for granted as natural the pain and suffering of all life forms. The Biblical God did not create life to suffer pain and death. Suffering, pain and death are not natural. They entered with the Fall, when humanity rebelled against their creator God. Therefore the Biblical God is not compatible with the ToE. Actually it was Robin Rohan who made this case based on what has been said about these things at EvC and he doesn't believe in any God.
However, either atheism or a lesser God, a weak God or an evil God, ARE logical inferences from the ToE. But the Biblical God is not.
This message has been edited by Faith, 01-30-2006 10:25 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by GDR, posted 01-30-2006 10:15 PM GDR has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 52 of 301 (282730)
01-30-2006 10:28 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Faith
01-30-2006 10:19 PM


Additional evidence that Faith's assertion has been Falsified.
Faith has asserted that it is impossible to believe in the Biblical GOD and also accept the TOE.
I have provided evidence that falsified her assertion.
I believe in the Biblical Christian GOD.
Pastor James Aalgaard of St. Paul Lutheran Church in Ontario, OR believes in the Biblical Christian GOD and accepts the TOE.
Pastor Wes Aardahl of Faith Lutheran Church (ELCA) in Bismarck, ND believes in the Biblical Christian GOD and accepts the TOE.
Your point is refuted Faith.
Would you like additional proofs?
I still have over 10,000 of them.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Faith, posted 01-30-2006 10:19 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by Faith, posted 01-30-2006 10:30 PM jar has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 53 of 301 (282731)
01-30-2006 10:30 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by jar
01-30-2006 10:28 PM


MODERATOR ATTENTION PLEASE
What people believe is proof of absolutely nothing, as you yourself would say if a YEC dared to make such a case.
Ben, Buzsaw, nwr, Asgara. You're all online now. JAR is out of order. He's simply bullying, using very bad reasoning. Big old power play, no substance.
This message has been edited by Faith, 01-30-2006 10:32 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by jar, posted 01-30-2006 10:28 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by jar, posted 01-30-2006 10:33 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 55 by AdminAsgara, posted 01-30-2006 10:39 PM Faith has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 54 of 301 (282732)
01-30-2006 10:33 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Faith
01-30-2006 10:30 PM


Faith completely refuted.
Faith has asserted that it is impossible to believe in the Biblical GOD and also accept the TOE.
I have provided evidence that falsified her assertion.
I believe in the Biblical Christian GOD.
Pastor James Aalgaard of St. Paul Lutheran Church in Ontario, OR believes in the Biblical Christian GOD and accepts the TOE.
Pastor Wes Aardahl of Faith Lutheran Church (ELCA) in Bismarck, ND believes in the Biblical Christian GOD and accepts the TOE.
The Rev. Charles L. Aaron, Jr., Ph.D. the Senior Pastor of Cornerstone United Methodist Church in Garland, TX believes in the Biblical Christian GOD and accepts the TOE.
Your point is refuted Faith.
Would you like additional proofs?
I still have over 10,000 of them.
This message has been edited by jar, 01-30-2006 09:34 PM

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Faith, posted 01-30-2006 10:30 PM Faith has not replied

AdminAsgara
Administrator (Idle past 2302 days)
Posts: 2073
From: The Universe
Joined: 10-11-2003


Message 55 of 301 (282733)
01-30-2006 10:39 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Faith
01-30-2006 10:30 PM


Re: MODERATOR ATTENTION PLEASE
I would think that if the claim is that one can't believe in the Christian god and accept the ToE then someone saying "Yes, I believe in the Christian god and accept the ToE" is proof against the original claim.
Belief is not proof of anything accept belief. But here the claim seems to be that this belief is impossible, so anyone professing this belief is indeed proof.
Maybe the next step should be asking what jar's beliefs about the Christian god are, not telling him that his beliefs are impossible.

AdminAsgara Queen of the Universe

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    This message is a reply to:
     Message 53 by Faith, posted 01-30-2006 10:30 PM Faith has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 57 by Faith, posted 01-30-2006 10:48 PM AdminAsgara has replied

    Faith 
    Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
    Posts: 35298
    From: Nevada, USA
    Joined: 10-06-2001


    Message 56 of 301 (282734)
    01-30-2006 10:46 PM
    Reply to: Message 48 by Omnivorous
    01-30-2006 10:15 PM


    Re: atheism / any God but Biblical God
    Well, part of my point, Faith, was that if we have free will, then the unfolding of the universe is not omnipotently ordered.
    We can only posit an Evil God (in the context of this logical construct) if that God is omnipotent and thus could have ordered the universe so that pain and suffering were unnecessary.
    But this is not the subject of this thread. I would certainly argue with your characterization of the Biblical God. I'm defending the God of Christian tradition and my God is definitely NOT compatible with the ToE. I'm not sure what point you are making with respect to the thread's topic. Perhaps even your hated God of the Bible is also incompatible with the ToE? I'm a bit distracted by the flap with jar at the moment, but that's the only issue that matters on this thread. In any case, the traditional Biblical God is highly INcompatible with the ToE.
    By the way, we no longer have free will in the original sense God gave it to Adam and Eve. They had it and they blew it. We no longer have free will because we no longer have any connection to God as they did and have therefore no ability to choose to obey the true God from our own natures. But that gets into Calvinism and is probably a rabbit trail on this thread.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 48 by Omnivorous, posted 01-30-2006 10:15 PM Omnivorous has not replied

    Faith 
    Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
    Posts: 35298
    From: Nevada, USA
    Joined: 10-06-2001


    Message 57 of 301 (282735)
    01-30-2006 10:48 PM
    Reply to: Message 55 by AdminAsgara
    01-30-2006 10:39 PM


    Re: MODERATOR ATTENTION PLEASE
    I asked. All jar has done is accuse me of making a mere assertion and refuse to see the argument I gave.
    AND no, his statement of what he -- or any number of people -- personally believes is NOT proof of anything, Asgara.
    And because of your friendship with jar you should have recused yourself from this task.
    This message has been edited by Faith, 01-30-2006 10:52 PM

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 55 by AdminAsgara, posted 01-30-2006 10:39 PM AdminAsgara has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 58 by NosyNed, posted 01-30-2006 10:58 PM Faith has not replied
     Message 59 by AdminAsgara, posted 01-30-2006 11:02 PM Faith has not replied
     Message 60 by AdminNWR, posted 01-30-2006 11:06 PM Faith has replied

    NosyNed
    Member
    Posts: 8996
    From: Canada
    Joined: 04-04-2003


    Message 58 of 301 (282736)
    01-30-2006 10:58 PM
    Reply to: Message 57 by Faith
    01-30-2006 10:48 PM


    Jar's belief's
    Perhaps Faith you should make yourself clear.
    Jar has said he believes in the Christian God. He also says he accepts the ToE.
    Belief is, as you say, not proof of something unless that something concerns belief itself.
    Are you saying that Jar hasn't proved that he believes in God? You haven't done that either. What proof will you offer to show that you do?
    Are you saying that Jar is lying about his belief? You have no way of showing that and it is very disrespectful. Is it ok for others here to accuse you of lying about your beliefs?
    Are you saying that the God the Jar believes in is not the Christian God? Jar has pointed out that more Christians believe as he does than as you do. That might suggest that it is you that doesn't believe in the Christian God. Do you think that is the case? If not, why not?
    You may suggest that there is bias in the reviewing of the situation. I am trying to clarify just what the situation is?
    The questions that you need to answer now are:
    In your opinion does Jar believe in the Christian God?
    If the answer is no, then what God does he believe in?
    If a majority of those who believe in Christ believe in the same God as Jar does then why is it your ide a of this God should be the one that is taken as the only definition of this God?
    If the answer is that you do think that Jar believes in the Christian God then are you saying he doesn't believe in the ToE? If you say that why do you say so?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 57 by Faith, posted 01-30-2006 10:48 PM Faith has not replied

    AdminAsgara
    Administrator (Idle past 2302 days)
    Posts: 2073
    From: The Universe
    Joined: 10-11-2003


    Message 59 of 301 (282737)
    01-30-2006 11:02 PM
    Reply to: Message 57 by Faith
    01-30-2006 10:48 PM


    Re: MODERATOR ATTENTION PLEASE
    First, if you were only going to accuse me of an inability to be objective, why ask for help and name my name? Will you refuse moderation on anything I say, or only when it involves a friend of mine?
    I am friends with many, many people on this board and would have no problem telling them if I thought they were wrong.
    I agreed with you, belief is not proof of anything accept belief. But it IS proof that this belief exists. If the claim is that this belief is impossible one person who has this belief is proof against the claim.
    And you have made an assertion, you assert that the belief is impossible. I will ask other mods to look at this, as I am obviously incapable of doing it to your satisfaction. Maybe from now on you could just ask for specific moderators to handle specific issues you have.

    AdminAsgara Queen of the Universe

    Comments on moderation procedures (or wish to respond to admin messages)? - Go to:
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  • New Members: to get an understanding of what makes great posts, check out:
  • "Post of the Month Forum"

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  • See also Forum Guidelines, Style Guides for EvC, and Assistance w/ Forum Formatting
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    This message is a reply to:
     Message 57 by Faith, posted 01-30-2006 10:48 PM Faith has not replied

    AdminNWR
    Inactive Member


    Message 60 of 301 (282738)
    01-30-2006 11:06 PM
    Reply to: Message 57 by Faith
    01-30-2006 10:48 PM


    Re: MODERATOR ATTENTION PLEASE
    Faith writes:
    And because of your friendship with jar you should have recused yourself from this task.
    However, in Message 53 you wrote "Ben, Buzsaw, nwr, Asgara. You're all online now. JAR is out of order." It seems to me that you asked AdminAsgara to intervene. In the circumstances, it is unreasonable to say she should have recused herself.
    Jar is presenting what he believes is a refutation of your claim. It seems to me that you have three choices:
    (1) withdraw your claim;
    (2) provide a convincing argument that jar is mistaken;
    (3) ignore jar's posts, and allow the readers of this thread to determine whether jar has refuted your claim.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 57 by Faith, posted 01-30-2006 10:48 PM Faith has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 61 by Faith, posted 01-30-2006 11:07 PM AdminNWR has not replied

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