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Author Topic:   What we must accept if we accept evolution Part 2
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 61 of 301 (282739)
01-30-2006 11:07 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by AdminNWR
01-30-2006 11:06 PM


Re: MODERATOR ATTENTION PLEASE
I will ignore jar's posts, including all his bullying insistence on my attending to them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by AdminNWR, posted 01-30-2006 11:06 PM AdminNWR has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by jar, posted 01-30-2006 11:19 PM Faith has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 62 of 301 (282740)
01-30-2006 11:12 PM


I have made myself perfectly clear.
The Biblical God did not create a world full of death. The ToE assumes that death is natural, which is a cruel nature. Therefore the ToE and the God of the Bible are incompatible.
That is the argument. It has been made over and over and over.
That God is incompatible with the ToE. I don't care what people illogically talk themselves into believing, that God is incompatible with the ToE.
That argument has been made. It is not an assertion, it is an argument.
JAR is out of order.

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by macaroniandcheese, posted 01-31-2006 12:20 AM Faith has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 63 of 301 (282741)
01-30-2006 11:19 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Faith
01-30-2006 11:07 PM


Faith exhibits wilfull Ignorance
Faith asserted that it was impossible to believe in the Christian Biblical GOD and accept the TOE.
I provided evidence that refuted her assertion. I believe in the Christian Biblical GOD and accept the TOE. I provided names of other Christian Clergy that accept the TOE. I offered to provide over 10,000 names of Christian Clergy that believe in the Christian Biblical GOD and accept the TOE.
Her response is...
I will ignore jar's posts, including all his bullying insistence on my attending to them.
That is the hallmark of the YEC. Ignore the evidence that refutes their position.
Here is the statement signed by over 10,000 US Christian Clergy.
Within the community of Christian believers there are areas of dispute and disagreement, including the proper way to interpret Holy Scripture. While virtually all Christians take the Bible seriously and hold it to be authoritative in matters of faith and practice, the overwhelming majority do not read the Bible literally, as they would a science textbook. Many of the beloved stories found in the Bible - the Creation, Adam and Eve, Noah and the ark - convey timeless truths about God, human beings, and the proper relationship between Creator and creation expressed in the only form capable of transmitting these truths from generation to generation. Religious truth is of a different order from scientific truth. Its purpose is not to convey scientific information but to transform hearts.
We the undersigned, Christian clergy from many different traditions, believe that the timeless truths of the Bible and the discoveries of modern science may comfortably coexist. We believe that the theory of evolution is a foundational scientific truth, one that has stood up to rigorous scrutiny and upon which much of human knowledge and achievement rests. To reject this truth or to treat it as “one theory among others” is to deliberately embrace scientific ignorance and transmit such ignorance to our children. We believe that among God’s good gifts are human minds capable of critical thought and that the failure to fully employ this gift is a rejection of the will of our Creator. To argue that God’s loving plan of salvation for humanity precludes the full employment of the God-given faculty of reason is to attempt to limit God, an act of hubris. We urge school board members to preserve the integrity of the science curriculum by affirming the teaching of the theory of evolution as a core component of human knowledge. We ask that science remain science and that religion remain religion, two very different, but complementary, forms of truth.
I repeat: "We believe that among God’s good gifts are human minds capable of critical thought and that the failure to fully employ this gift is a rejection of the will of our Creator. To argue that God’s loving plan of salvation for humanity precludes the full employment of the God-given faculty of reason is to attempt to limit God, an act of hubris."
Being a Christian does not mean you have to check your brains at the door.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Faith, posted 01-30-2006 11:07 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by Faith, posted 01-31-2006 12:29 AM jar has replied

Funkaloyd
Inactive Member


Message 64 of 301 (282747)
01-31-2006 12:01 AM


The ToE and Gods
An omnipotent, omniscient god creates a perfect (good, as opposed to evil) universe. In this universe, it creates (supernatural) beings, who have free will. These beings somehow corrupt the universe, and introduce evil. Eventually, biological mutation and natural selection are seen in this universe.
What's wrong with the above? Does the ToE not allow for an omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent creator?
ABE: Actually, I believe that it doesn't, and that the above is logically inconsistent. But the problems it suffers are the same that afflict certain interpretations of the Bible, so I don't think that Faith will come to the same conclusion as I do.
This message has been edited by Funkaloyd, Tue, 31-Jan-2006 05:07 PM

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by Faith, posted 01-31-2006 12:23 AM Funkaloyd has replied

macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3928 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 65 of 301 (282750)
01-31-2006 12:20 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by Faith
01-30-2006 11:12 PM


The Biblical God did not create a world full of death. The ToE assumes that death is natural, which is a cruel nature. Therefore the ToE and the God of the Bible are incompatible.
nope. that's an assertion. you have presented no proof and your mental gymnastics aren't enough. first. there has been no biblical proof that death was not part of god's creation. namely, the genesis story purports immediate death resulting from eating the fruit, not some bizarre eternal spiritual fall. immediate death.
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
in the day. that very day. not someday 900 years from now. today. not my fault it doesn't actually happen that way. if you're going to believe the bible to be inerrant you have to believe that it says what it means and means what it says.
further, later in the bible, god kills people. lots of people. if god is so good and his creation meant to be without death, then why does he kill people? i can deal with a good god killing people. i can't deal with a god who allegedly created a deathless world killing people. that's non-logic.
give evidence for your assertions or admit that you're wrong.
moreover, what is so cruel about death? death is great. it makes room for more people and more species. living forever with a disease? now that sucks.
This message has been edited by brennakimi, 01-31-2006 12:21 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Faith, posted 01-30-2006 11:12 PM Faith has not replied

Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 66 of 301 (282751)
01-31-2006 12:20 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Faith
01-30-2006 4:16 PM


Re: Logic
Hi Faith,
The original thread spoke of logical consequences, and the title what we MUST accept. If you want your thread to be 'What evolution strongly implies', that would be different

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Faith, posted 01-30-2006 4:16 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by Faith, posted 01-31-2006 12:26 AM Modulous has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 67 of 301 (282752)
01-31-2006 12:23 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by Funkaloyd
01-31-2006 12:01 AM


Re: The ToE and Gods
Does the ToE not allow for an omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent creator?
ABE: Actually, I believe that it doesn't,
Then we agree that far. If the God one believes in is thought to have created an environment of suffering and death for his creatures, that God is compatible with the ToE ...
but a God who created everything good and life-enhancing and treats even those who rebelled against him with mercy and protection, is not compatible with the bloody death-driven ToE.
We don't need to get into an argument about Bible interpretations. If your interpretation of God is the latter, then if you think you believe in the ToE you have a logical problem because that God is not compatible with the bloody ToE.
Any other God or no God at all appear to be logically compatible however.
It doesn't matter how you arrived at your view of God, the one view is incompatible while others have no conflict with it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Funkaloyd, posted 01-31-2006 12:01 AM Funkaloyd has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by nwr, posted 01-31-2006 12:27 AM Faith has replied
 Message 72 by Funkaloyd, posted 01-31-2006 12:34 AM Faith has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 68 of 301 (282753)
01-31-2006 12:26 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by Modulous
01-31-2006 12:20 AM


Re: Logic
I believe that we MUST accept that the ToE is utterly incompatible with an omnipotent omniscient omnipresent good and loving God who made His creation good and life-enhancing, without suffering and death.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Modulous, posted 01-31-2006 12:20 AM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by Modulous, posted 01-31-2006 12:41 AM Faith has replied

nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 69 of 301 (282754)
01-31-2006 12:27 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by Faith
01-31-2006 12:23 AM


Re: The ToE and Gods
but a God who created everything good and life-enhancing and treats even those who rebelled against him with mercy and protection, is not compatible with the bloody death-driven ToE.
A God who created everything good is not compatible with a God who deliberately murdered almost the entire population of the earth in a global flood.
Your problem is not with ToE. Your problem is that you have invented an inconsistent God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Faith, posted 01-31-2006 12:23 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by Faith, posted 01-31-2006 12:48 AM nwr has not replied

Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 70 of 301 (282755)
01-31-2006 12:28 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by Faith
01-30-2006 5:52 PM


Re: Logic
O Modulous Mod, you're such a nice guy,
Twould be terrif could we see eye to eye;
But this logic of yours is a pain in the neck,
Dealt I suspect from outside the deck,
So how much I'd rather ignore its demands.
(Couldn't help rhyming, it sometimes just happens).
Cute
I can't make head or tail out of your presentation of the logic involved and I've given up trying. The bit about the supernatural only enters into one small area of the problem I think, about the incorporeal mind question, and I'm not sure where that belongs in the OP scheme.
My principal goal was firing at the athiesm part. Gods are inherently supernatural things! Accepting God is not materialism. You have reformulated the OP to being 'any god but the Biblical God'. I would actually refine that to 'any god but a creator god' (where creator god is a god that specially creates life rather than evolves it), probably a fairer wording. It is possible to believe in a non-creator God and accept evolution without any logical problem, which you seem to have conceded. As such materialism is no longer a 'must accept'.
I'll work on nihilism and determinism later.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Faith, posted 01-30-2006 5:52 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by Faith, posted 01-31-2006 12:39 AM Modulous has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 71 of 301 (282756)
01-31-2006 12:29 AM
Reply to: Message 63 by jar
01-30-2006 11:19 PM


Re: Faith exhibits wilfull Ignorance
If anyone believes in the omnipotent omnipresent omniscient good God of love who did not create the universe with suffering and death in it, that person cannot logically also believe in the ToE which treats suffering and death as natural.
If you believe in the ToE AND in that God you are living a logical contradiction.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by jar, posted 01-30-2006 11:19 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by jar, posted 01-31-2006 12:47 AM Faith has replied

Funkaloyd
Inactive Member


Message 72 of 301 (282757)
01-31-2006 12:34 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by Faith
01-31-2006 12:23 AM


Re: The ToE and Gods
Faith writes:
God ... created everything good and life-enhancing and treats even those who rebelled against him with mercy and protection
In your view, that is what actually happened, correct?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Faith, posted 01-31-2006 12:23 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by Faith, posted 01-31-2006 12:41 AM Funkaloyd has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 73 of 301 (282758)
01-31-2006 12:39 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by Modulous
01-31-2006 12:28 AM


Re: Logic
My principal goal was firing at the athiesm part. Gods are inherently supernatural things! Accepting God is not materialism. You have reformulated the OP to being 'any god but the Biblical God'.
But I am not addressing materialism, only atheism, which is definitely the most logical conclusion from the ToE, and have for the sake of argument conceded that an evil god, weak god or lesser gods of all kinds are also compatible -- but this is a purely academic point as nobody believes in any of these Gods. Really only Atheism is the most logical inference.
The point of all this is to show that the GOOD God of the Bible is NOT compatible with the bloody ToE and that those who think so are deluding themselves.
This HAS been shown.
Over and over again.
I haven't gotten around to thinking about materialism as such.
I would actually refine that to 'any god but a creator god' (where creator god is a god that specially creates life rather than evolves it), probably a fairer wording. It is possible to believe in a non-creator God and accept evolution without any logical problem, which you seem to have conceded. As such materialism is no longer a 'must accept'.
Yes. That's fine. One can add all the lesser gods to ToE's ranks, no problem. But again this is a trivial academic point. The God everybody THINKS they believe in is in fact totally incompatible with the ToE which takes pain and death for granted. And this is why in reality the ToE promotes atheism.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Modulous, posted 01-31-2006 12:28 AM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by Modulous, posted 01-31-2006 12:57 AM Faith has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 74 of 301 (282759)
01-31-2006 12:41 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by Funkaloyd
01-31-2006 12:34 AM


Re: The ToE and Gods
In your view, that is what actually happened, correct?
Yes. It is also the traditional Christian position. Arguing it is not on topic for this thread. The point is only that this view of God is incompatible with the ToE no matter who holds it. This being the general view of God held by believers in the west, all the other gods having been proposed being mere academic props, the logical conclusion is that the ToE tends logically to atheism.
This message has been edited by Faith, 01-31-2006 12:43 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Funkaloyd, posted 01-31-2006 12:34 AM Funkaloyd has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by Funkaloyd, posted 01-31-2006 12:52 AM Faith has not replied

Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 75 of 301 (282760)
01-31-2006 12:41 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by Faith
01-31-2006 12:26 AM


Re: Logic
I believe that we MUST accept that the ToE is utterly incompatible with an omnipotent omniscient omnipresent good and loving God who made His creation good and life-enhancing, without suffering and death.
Yes, one must reject any god that specially created humans OR reject evolution. When I say evolution, I mean as I previously defined it. Naturally ToE does not have to be rejected by accepting aforementioned deity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Faith, posted 01-31-2006 12:26 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by Faith, posted 01-31-2006 12:45 AM Modulous has replied

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