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Author
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Topic: Fundamentalists (of all stripes) at it again (Re: Textbook Wars: Religion in History)
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Percy
Member Posts: 22500 From: New Hampshire Joined: 12-23-2000 Member Rating: 4.9
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Message 1 of 194 (281542)
01-25-2006 3:11 PM
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Science books aren't the only ones fundamentalists want to rewrite. This is from today's WSJ:
Defending the Faith
New Battleground
In Textbook Wars:
Religion in History Hindu, Islamic, Jewish Groups
Fault Portrayals of Events
And Often Win Changes The Untouchables Weigh In By DANIEL GOLDEN
Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL
January 25, 2006; Page A1 The victors write the history books, the saying goes. But increasingly, religious advocates try to edit them. Religious pressure on textbooks is growing well beyond Christian fundamentalists' attack on evolution. History books are the biggest battleground, as groups vie for changes in texts for elementary and secondary schools that cast their faiths in a better light. Two Hindu groups and a Jewish group have been set up in the past three years as textbook watchdogs, adding to Islamic advocates who have monitored history textbooks since 1990. In addition, some Sikhs have started to complain about being short-changed in history textbooks. All are seeking to extract concessions as California holds its periodic approval process for history textbooks. The process drives school-district purchases in the most populous state, and books adopted for California typically are the ones that schools in the rest of the country end up using for several years. Hindu groups, in particular, have swamped California authorities with proposed revisions, which would delete or soften references to polytheism, the caste system and the inferior status of women in ancient India. For example, the Hindu Education Foundation, a group linked to a Hindu nationalist organization in India, proposed replacing a textbook's statement that "men had many more rights than women" in ancient India with: "Men had different duties ... as well as rights than women. Many women were among the sages to whom the Vedas [sacred texts] were revealed." California's Curriculum Commission endorsed this and most other changes pushed by Hindu groups, moving the matter along to the state board of education, which usually follows its advice. But then a strong objection to such changes arrived from a group of U.S. scholars, led by a Harvard professor, Michael Witzel. The scholars' protest, in turn, led to a lawsuit threat, a call for Harvard to disband the professor's department, and finally an unusual state-sponsored head-to-head debate between two scholars of ancient India. Underlying such free-for-alls is the question of whether lobbying by religious groups yields a more sensitive and accurate version of history or a sugar-coated one -- and also whether students are served better or less well. "It tends to be scholar pitted against believer," says Kenneth Noonan, a member of the state education board. For textbook publishers, meanwhile, to ignore religious groups is to risk exclusion from markets. One of the nation's largest school districts, Fairfax County, Va., dropped a McGraw-Hill Cos. 10th-grade text from its recommended list last year after complaints from Hindu parents, keeping it out of classrooms there. Religious protests nearly crippled Oxford University Press's effort to enter the U.S. world-history textbook market. The prestigious university press sought to impress California authorities with cutting-edge scholarship and narrative verve, but the Curriculum Commission initially recommended against adopting Oxford's sixth-grade book last fall after Jewish and Hindu groups objected to it. The Institute for Curriculum Services, a Jewish group set up in 2004 to scrutinize textbooks, was upset by the book's statement that archaeology and ancient Egyptian records don't support the Biblical account of the Exodus of the Israelite slaves from Egypt. While conceding this was true, the group said the book didn't apply the same skepticism to Islamic or Christian events, such as when it said that "ancient writings" and the Gospel according to Matthew relate that "wise men (probably philosophers or astrologers) followed a brightly shining star" when Jesus was born. Similarly, the book said that "according to Muslim tradition," the prophet Muhammad flew into heaven from the site of the Dome of the Rock mosque. The Hindu groups, meanwhile, called the book's tone insensitive, such as its heading over a column about vegetarianism in India: "Where's the Beef?" The state board finally put the book on its approved list after Oxford cut the passages found objectionable and added a paragraph saying that for Jews, the Exodus is a "central event in their history" and "powerful symbol of the importance of freedom." Casper Grathwohl, an official of Oxford University Press, says it preserved its integrity, and the give-and-take improved the text. But he complains that "the process is skewed toward giving the loudest voices what they want." Every six years, California adopts a list of history books for kindergarten through eighth grade, and districts can spend designated state money only for books on this list. Publishers typically roll out new textbooks for the state, whose districts are expected to buy nearly $200 million of history books over the next two years. California alone represents 10% to 12% of the national textbook market. In the 1970s and 1980s, history texts shied away from religion. "They didn't use the 'capital G' word," says Roger Rogalin, a publishing consultant. "They said the pilgrims gave thanks on Thanksgiving, but they didn't say to whom." Difficult Goals Prodded by religious groups, states began requiring more coverage of the topic. But they imposed goals that can be hard to reconcile: both maintaining historical accuracy and enhancing the pride and self-esteem of believers. California's guidelines, for instance, say students "should understand the intense religious passions that have produced fanaticism and war." But also, texts should avoid "reflecting adversely" on anyone's creed or instilling "prejudice against...those who believe in other religions." Such cautions provide an opportunity for religious activists such as the Council on Islamic Education in Fountain Valley, Calif. In California's most recent review, the council called for extensive changes, most of which the state appears likely to accept. One target: A Prentice Hall text said the medieval spread of Islam was partly due to military conquest. "Actual conversion to Islam did NOT occur...at the point of a sword," the council told the state. A specialist appointed by the state board to review Islamic coverage recommended dropping the reference, and Prentice Hall says it will do so. Publishers often hire the Council on Islamic Education to prescreen manuscripts. In California, the council is a "content consultant" for Houghton Mifflin Co. and Ballard & Tighe Co., an educational publisher in Brea, Calif. The council has sometimes advised Prentice Hall and other publishers as well. Publishers have allowed the Islamic group to "dictate" content, charges Gilbert Sewall, director of the American Textbook Council, a New York nonprofit group that reviews history texts and has said they often lack depth and factual fidelity. "Islamic pressure groups have been working energetically for 15 years to scrub the past in instructional materials," he wrote to California officials. He added that "textbooks submitted either gloss over jihad, sharia [Islamic law], Muslim slavery, the status of women and Islamic terrorism -- or omit the subject altogether." Houghton Mifflin says it hasn't ceded any control to the Council on Islamic Education, and seeks Hindu, Jewish, Protestant, Catholic and Buddhist perspectives too. "We listen to their input and weigh it against what our scholarly authors believe is true," a spokesman says. Ballard & Tighe says its text was examined by Jewish and Hindu experts as well as the Islamic council. "We're mostly looking not to insult people," says an executive of the publisher. A spokeswoman for Prentice Hall says it has found the Council on Islamic Education to be a "solid resource for reviewing content." The council's founder, Shabbir Mansuri, says that texts are treating Islam better not because of his efforts but because of state guidelines that stress sensitivity toward religious beliefs. Disputes over textbook portrayal of Hinduism are a staple of politics in India, and the concerns have arrived in America along with many Indian immigrants. The conventional view of ancient India in U.S. history texts is that men enjoyed more rights than women and that, then as now, Hindus worshipped many gods and were divided into castes. But the Hindu Education Foundation and the Vedic Foundation, the educational arm of a Hindu temple in Austin, Texas, say Hinduism is monotheistic because all of its deities are aspects of one god, Brahman. So when one textbook referred to Hindus visiting temples to "express their love of the gods," this should be changed to "express their love for God," said the Vedic group. The groups repeatedly proposed deleting references to the caste system and making other changes that burnished the image of Indian history and culture. For instance, McGraw-Hill's book said of an early monarch called Asoka that his "tolerance was unusual for the time." The Hindu Education Foundation suggested changing "unusual" to "usual." 'Source of Misunderstanding' At the Vedic Foundation, "Our motto is to re-establish the greatness of Hinduism, and part of that is to correct the textbooks," says Janeshwari Devi, director of programs. "Those are a source of misunderstanding, prejudice and derogatory information." Some Hindu students say they're humiliated in school because texts dwell on customs such as ostracism of untouchables and an old tradition, rarely observed today, of "sati" -- widows immolating themselves on their husbands' funeral pyres. Trisha Pasricha, a high-school junior in a Houston suburb, says she used to deny being Hindu to classmates because she was tired of refuting stereotypes perpetuated by textbooks and teachers. "The textbooks bring up all these obscure practices, like bride burning, and act like they happen every day," she says. "The biggest mistake is that Hinduism is portrayed as polytheistic. And the caste system has nothing to do with Hinduism. But no one believes you, because it's in the textbook." But some prominent scholars, both non-Hindu and Hindu, say the books were right. According to Madhav Deshpande, a Sanskrit professor at the University of Michigan who is Hindu, Hinduism is polytheistic and linked to the caste system, and women did have inferior status in ancient India. He says the Hindu groups hold a mistaken position that dates to when India was ruled by Britain in the 19th century and under pressure from Christian missionaries. The missionaries told prospective converts Christianity was superior because it had one god, treated women fairly, and didn't have castes, Mr. Deshpande says, adding that to counter, Hindu intellectuals made up an argument that their religion had once been the same way. The foundations' contention that the caste system developed separately from Hinduism is incorrect, he maintains, because "in ancient texts, there is no distinction between the religious and nonreligious domains of life." Jackson Spielvogel, a retired Penn State professor and author of McGraw-Hill's "Ancient Civilizations" textbook, says, "You can't allow Hindu nationalists to rewrite the history of India.... It becomes an issue of censorship." To review changes proposed by the Hindu groups, California hired an expert recommended by one of the groups: Shiva Bajpai, a retired California State University history professor. He endorsed most of their changes. "I want to recognize the negatives but project the positives," says Mr. Bajpai, who is Hindu. With his blessing, the changes were rolling toward ratification by the state board when Harvard's Prof. Witzel unexpectedly intervened. Alerted by an Indian-American graduate student whom the Vedic Foundation had approached to support its changes, Mr. Witzel wrote to the board the day before a Nov. 9 meeting at which approval of the Hindu-backed changes was expected. "They are unscholarly [and] politically and religiously motivated," wrote Mr. Witzel, a Sanskrit professor. His letter was co-signed by nearly 50 scholars, including Mr. Deshpande of Michigan. Mr. Witzel calls the Hindu Education Foundation a front for a prominent nationalist group in India, the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh, whose leader caused a stir in November by urging Hindu women to have more children to keep up with the Muslim growth rate. A spokesman for the Hindu Education Foundation acknowledges a connection -- it was established by the U.S. counterpart of the Indian group -- but says it acts independently. State officials did an about-face after they got Mr. Witzel's letter, inviting him and two like-minded scholars to scrutinize Mr. Bajpai's recommendations. When the three advised restoring much of the textbooks' original wording, angry letters began pouring in from Hindu groups. One, the Hindu American Foundation, threatened to sue the state. A petition from Hindu advocates called on Harvard to end its association with "Aryan Supremacist Creationist hate mongering." Harvard responded by defending Mr. Witzel's academic freedom. The groups persuaded two members of California's congressional delegation to weigh in. Rep. Pete Stark, a Unitarian, and Rep. Linda Sanchez, a Catholic, asked the state superintendent of public instruction to investigate Mr. Witzel. The superintendent replied that the state had already held three public hearings on the history texts, received more than 1,000 pages of testimony, and considered more than 800 textual changes. The pendulum swung back on Dec. 2, when the Curriculum Commission voted to support most of the changes sought by the Hindu foundations. "We have to err on the side of sensitivity toward religion," a commission member, Stan Metzenberg, said at the time. The game wasn't over. Other Hindu groups -- including members of the "untouchables" caste -- entered the fray on Mr. Witzel's behalf. The Dalit Freedom Network, an advocacy group for untouchables, wrote to the education board that the proposed Vedic and Hindu Education Foundation changes reflect "a view of Indian history that softens...the violent truth of caste-based discrimination in India.... Do not allow politically-minded revisionists to change Indian history." Caught in the cross-fire, the board of education summoned Mr. Witzel and Mr. Bajpai to an unusual private session Jan. 6. Before board and commission members, staffers and the board's lawyer, the scholars debated each edit. "It was a gladiator combat," Mr. Bajpai recalls, "the most acrimonious thing I have ever done in my entire life. It deteriorated into me telling him he didn't understand anything." Mr. Witzel says Mr. Bajpai "mixed his religion with scholarship." The duo did reach consensus on some changes. They agreed to narrow the McGraw-Hill text's statement that men in ancient India had "more rights" than women to "more property rights" -- but not to the Hindu groups' preferred wording of "different" rights. Still, it isn't certain the compromises reached by the two scholars will stand. At a meeting Jan. 12, the state board of education created a subcommittee to reconsider the matter -- and to prepare for still more religious pressure when books are expected to be added to the list in two years. Write to Daniel Golden at dan.golden@wsj.com {Added the "(Re: Textbook Wars: Religion in History)" part to the topic title on 1/26/06. - Adminnemooseus} This message has been edited by Adminnemooseus, 01-26-2006 01:48 PM
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Percy
Member Posts: 22500 From: New Hampshire Joined: 12-23-2000 Member Rating: 4.9
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Re: Fundimentalism, as per message 1, is not just Christian fundamentalism
minnemooseus writes: Although perhaps technically a misuse of the term... This is the first definition from Answers.com, and it was the one I intended when I titled the thread "Fundamentalists (of all stripes)...": - A usually religious movement or point of view characterized by a return to fundamental principles, by rigid adherence to those principles, and often by intolerance of other views and opposition to secularism.
Answering's Randman's unusual interpretation, no one is blaming Christian fundamentalism for the actions of fundamentalists of other persuasions. About the most you could say is that they're copying the Christian's approach in lobbying for textbook changes more consistent with their beliefs. --Percy
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 90 by Minnemooseus, posted 01-29-2006 4:04 PM | | Minnemooseus has not replied |
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Percy
Member Posts: 22500 From: New Hampshire Joined: 12-23-2000 Member Rating: 4.9
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Message 106 of 194 (282528)
01-30-2006 9:45 AM
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Reply to: Message 95 by randman
01-29-2006 9:31 PM
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Re: Fundimentalism, as per message 1, is not just Christian fundamentalism
randman writes: Percy, I don't see a lot of evidence these Hindus are fundamentalists. They appear to be more modernists in respect to their religious traditions. The article refers to two Hindu groups, and one of them is modernist in outlook and so they are not fundamentalists. But it would be a mistake to turn this thread into a discussion of labels. The issue isn't one of which group is fundamentalist in outlook and which isn't, but rather the disturbing pattern of religious groups lobbying textbook publishers and boards of education for changes more consistent with their religious beliefs. It's a question of whether we want secular scholarship overridden by religious sensibilities in the books used by school children. Perhaps we agree about this when it comes to history books. Multiculturalism is neither all good nor all bad, but where the article says this:
But they imposed goals that can be hard to reconcile: both maintaining historical accuracy and enhancing the pride and self-esteem of believers. This worries me a great deal. Historical accuracy cannot be sacrificed out of fear of offending someone. The article also quotes a portion of the California guidelines where it says:
But also, texts should avoid "reflecting adversely" on anyone's creed or instilling "prejudice against...those who believe in other religions." Noble goals, but also typical liberal feel-good folderol. Do they mean we should distort the history we teach in public schools? I think we probably agree that they shouldn't. You would like to blame multiculturalism, and I agree that such views encourage lending an overly sympathetic ear to the complaints of these religious groups. But what I found notable was the similarity of these group's methods to those of creationist groups. Rather than taking routes through scholarship to change what is represented in textbooks, they instead lobby textbook publishers and boards of education. --Percy This message has been edited by Percy, 01-30-2006 09:49 AM
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 95 by randman, posted 01-29-2006 9:31 PM | | randman has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 107 by randman, posted 01-30-2006 10:07 AM | | Percy has replied |
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Percy
Member Posts: 22500 From: New Hampshire Joined: 12-23-2000 Member Rating: 4.9
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Message 108 of 194 (282535)
01-30-2006 10:31 AM
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Reply to: Message 107 by randman
01-30-2006 10:07 AM
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Re: Fundimentalism, as per message 1, is not just Christian fundamentalism
randman writes: but rather the disturbing pattern of religious groups lobbying textbook publishers and boards of education for changes more consistent with their religious beliefs. Isn't this the result of secular groups and people first lobbying or suing or partnering with minority religions to litigate and force changes to the school system and textbook publishers? That's what happened. Secular groups or people, sometimes in tandem with non-Christian groups of people, lobbied and sued to force Christianity to be removed from aspects of the school's life, right? I can only guess what you're talking about. Are you referring to things like school prayer and posting the 10 commandments on school property? If so, the topic's about textbooks, not religious expressions on school property. If not, you'll have to provide some hint of what you're referring to.
Why if it's OK for secularists to lobby to force changes to textbooks and history with reference to Christianity... Nothing like this was mentioned in the article, so once again I don't know what you're referring to.
What about whether we want religious scholarship overridden by secular sensibilities in the books used by school children? Whose religious scholarship? Christianity's? Hinduism's? Buddhism's? Judahism's? Islam's?
Theology and religious history has largely been removed due to secularists pushing for that, arguing that it could engender separation issues, as such, people are miseducated. Again, I don't know what you're referring to. Concerning religious history, I believe Constantine's conversion, Martin Luther, the Reformation, etc., etc., are all still taught. What historical events of you thinking of? And theology has never been taught to any significant extent in public schools. --Percy
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 107 by randman, posted 01-30-2006 10:07 AM | | randman has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 109 by randman, posted 01-30-2006 10:36 AM | | Percy has replied |
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Percy
Member Posts: 22500 From: New Hampshire Joined: 12-23-2000 Member Rating: 4.9
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Message 110 of 194 (282546)
01-30-2006 11:36 AM
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Reply to: Message 109 by randman
01-30-2006 10:36 AM
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Re: Fundimentalism, as per message 1, is not just Christian fundamentalism
Addressing the Reformation in less depth than you would like not the same thing as distorting the Reformation. What we're talking about in this thread is requests by religious groups to change textbooks to be more consistent with their beliefs but in ways that are not consistent with scholarship. --Percy
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 109 by randman, posted 01-30-2006 10:36 AM | | randman has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 111 by randman, posted 01-30-2006 11:56 AM | | Percy has replied |
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Percy
Member Posts: 22500 From: New Hampshire Joined: 12-23-2000 Member Rating: 4.9
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Message 112 of 194 (282568)
01-30-2006 12:35 PM
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Reply to: Message 111 by randman
01-30-2006 11:56 AM
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Re: Fundimentalism, as per message 1, is not just Christian fundamentalism
randman writes: Percy, presenting things like separation of Church and State as a result of secularism, and equating separation of God from the State is a distortion of scholarship. Sorry, can't parse this.
You guys do the same thing in public schools. Until you're specific I can't know what you're talking about, but if it isn't related to lobbying publishers and boards of education for textbook changes then it's a different topic. --Percy
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 111 by randman, posted 01-30-2006 11:56 AM | | randman has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 113 by randman, posted 01-30-2006 4:52 PM | | Percy has replied |
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Percy
Member Posts: 22500 From: New Hampshire Joined: 12-23-2000 Member Rating: 4.9
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Message 114 of 194 (282675)
01-30-2006 5:48 PM
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Reply to: Message 113 by randman
01-30-2006 4:52 PM
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Re: Fundimentalism, as per message 1, is not just Christian fundamentalism
You say many interesting things. I had no idea that "separation of church and state" was one of the great rallying cries of the Reformation. And the idea that separation of church and state was never intended to be separation of God and state seems a fertile area for discussion. But none of this has anything to do with the topic. If you'd like to discuss the Reformation or secularist distortions of history then you should probably propose some new topics. But If you would like to argue that there are secular groups bypassing scholarship by lobbying publishers and boards of education for their preferred viewpoints just like the religious groups mentioned in the article, which is all I can find from you that pertains to this thread, then please proceed. --Percy
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 113 by randman, posted 01-30-2006 4:52 PM | | randman has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 115 by randman, posted 01-31-2006 12:15 AM | | Percy has replied |
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Percy
Member Posts: 22500 From: New Hampshire Joined: 12-23-2000 Member Rating: 4.9
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Message 119 of 194 (282836)
01-31-2006 9:33 AM
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Reply to: Message 115 by randman
01-31-2006 12:15 AM
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Re: Fundimentalism, as per message 1, is not just Christian fundamentalism
randman writes: It's been awhile, but there is a reason and I would think you would agree, that someone as educated as yourself didn't know the historical use of the term separation of Church and State during the Reformation. Sarcasm is sometimes difficult to convey in written form. Another possibility is that your claim that "separation of church and state" was one of the major rallying cries of the Reformation is incorrect. If you'd like to contrast current interpretations of "separation of church and state" with those of the Reformation and before then you should open a new topic.
The history textbooks have largely been sanitized of religion. This is only your opinion, and it is off-topic. If you'd like to discuss it then you should open a new topic.
Religion and Christianity is downplayed, and history distorted because that's what secularists wanted and were willing to use litigation to obtain. Now you're getting a little closer to being on-topic. Do you have any examples? Lawsuits to restore the original condition after successful lobbying of publishers and/or school boards by religious groups don't qualify, of course. You need an example of a secular group using litigation to bypass scholarship to have their own particular viewpoints represented in textbooks and/or school curriculums
Now other groups are doing the same. The other groups described in the article are not using litigation. They're lobbying publishers and school boards. You seem to be having trouble finding apples to compare with other apples. You keep saying that the religious groups described in the article are just doing the same thing secularist groups have been doing for years, but you haven't been able to provide an example of a secular group doing any such thing. --Percy
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 115 by randman, posted 01-31-2006 12:15 AM | | randman has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 121 by nator, posted 01-31-2006 10:10 AM | | Percy has replied |
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Percy
Member Posts: 22500 From: New Hampshire Joined: 12-23-2000 Member Rating: 4.9
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Message 122 of 194 (282865)
01-31-2006 10:26 AM
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Reply to: Message 121 by nator
01-31-2006 10:10 AM
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Re: Fundimentalism, as per message 1, is not just Christian fundamentalism
schraf writes: Why should randman waste his time, Percy? Can't you google? Randman claims that secular groups have been doing for years what these religious groups are doing now, which is trying to get their particular historical viewpoints represented in textbooks by bypassing scholarship and instead lobbying publishers and school boards. I can't even guess which secular groups or efforts Randman is referring to, so if you can help then please google away! --Percy
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 121 by nator, posted 01-31-2006 10:10 AM | | nator has replied |
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Percy
Member Posts: 22500 From: New Hampshire Joined: 12-23-2000 Member Rating: 4.9
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Message 125 of 194 (282991)
01-31-2006 8:43 PM
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Reply to: Message 124 by Buzsaw
01-31-2006 8:16 PM
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Re: Fundimentalism, as per message 1, is not just Christian fundamentalism
buzsaw writes: As I've shown, your own OP study acknowledged that history books were being revised to more of a secularist agenda in fairly recent decades. Whose "secularist agenda"? The article just says that history books began shying away from religion in the 70s and 80s. It doesn't say anything about the reasons, and it certainly mentions no secular agenda. In fact, neither the word "secular" nor "agenda" appears in the article. Randman claims the religious groups mentioned in the OP are only doing the same thing secular groups have done. Which secular groups? What changes did they pressure for? When? I guess I've asked this enough times now that I'm entitled to draw some conclusions from the lack of response. The reason there are no groups to point to is because gradual secularization is a result of diffuse forces driven from many different quarters, including but not limited to the increasing presence of other cultures and religions in our society, and the judiciary's increasingly clear stance on the separation of church and state. You won't find a secular bogeyman pressuring publishers and schools boards because he is both everywhere and nowhere. The country is responding to forces that are under no single group's control. --Percy
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 124 by Buzsaw, posted 01-31-2006 8:16 PM | | Buzsaw has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 127 by Buzsaw, posted 02-01-2006 12:03 AM | | Percy has replied |
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Percy
Member Posts: 22500 From: New Hampshire Joined: 12-23-2000 Member Rating: 4.9
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Message 131 of 194 (283093)
02-01-2006 9:14 AM
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Reply to: Message 127 by Buzsaw
02-01-2006 12:03 AM
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Re: Fundimentalism, as per message 1, is not just Christian fundamentalism
buzsaw writes: I would assume that these folks as well as the ACLU have had a part in textbook revisions. This has been pointed out already, but you're addressing the wrong issue. Randman claims the increasingly secular perspective of history books is due to secular groups doing the same thing as the religious groups in the article, namely bypassing scholarship by lobbying publishers and school boards to make changes more favorable to their own particular viewpoints. The example Randman used was of the Reformation to be more favorable to them? Can you provide an example of any secular group lobbying for a change in the way history books address the Reformation? Or of any significant Christian movement? The crusades, perhaps? Constantine's conversion? I can easily imagine a secular group going to court to remove from the public school curiculum any history book that described Noah's flood or the Last Supper as actual historical events, but that's not the kind of thing we're talking about here. The gradual secularization of history books and school curiculums in general is not due to secular groups lobbying publishers and school board for special treatment for their particular beliefs. It is only a reflection of the gradual recognition that in order to be fair to all religions you can favor none. Christianity once held a favored postion within the governmental institutions of the western world because it was almost everyone's religion, but a government that favors Christianity cannot be fair to Jews or Moslems. In fact, as history has shown over and over again all across Europe, a Christian government that favors Protestants cannot even be fair to Catholics, and vice versa. Favoring no religion is the only possible avenue for a government intent upon fairness. --Percy
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 127 by Buzsaw, posted 02-01-2006 12:03 AM | | Buzsaw has not replied |
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Percy
Member Posts: 22500 From: New Hampshire Joined: 12-23-2000 Member Rating: 4.9
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Message 138 of 194 (284301)
02-06-2006 3:30 AM
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Reply to: Message 134 by randman
02-05-2006 6:42 PM
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Re: Fundimentalism, as per message 1, is not just Christian fundamentalism
You never heard of the ACLU and it's lawsuits against school districts? Take as much time as you like to reply, but when you return please at least take the trouble to read back through the thread to refamiliarize yourself with it and to find any replies you might have missed. My last reply to you was Message 119, where I say something I'd already said several times:
Now you're getting a little closer to being on-topic. Do you have any examples? Lawsuits to restore the original condition after successful lobbying of publishers and/or school boards by religious groups don't qualify, of course. You need an example of a secular group using litigation to bypass scholarship to have their own particular viewpoints represented in textbooks and/or school curriculums. Next time please do your own homework. --Percy
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 134 by randman, posted 02-05-2006 6:42 PM | | randman has not replied |
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Percy
Member Posts: 22500 From: New Hampshire Joined: 12-23-2000 Member Rating: 4.9
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Message 139 of 194 (284302)
02-06-2006 3:39 AM
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Reply to: Message 135 by randman
02-05-2006 6:44 PM
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Re: Fundimentalism, as per message 1, is not just Christian fundamentalism
randman writes: It's probably hopeless buzz. Percy is just going to deny reality, and claim no knowledge of secularists' attempts to take religion out of education.... Since I'm willing to correct your inaccurate characterizations of what I'm saying as often as you make them, I'm not sure what you think you're accomplishing by repeating them. Naturally efforts like those of creationists to put religion into the classroom are opposed by secularists. But you have claimed that secularists have done and are doing the same thing as the religious groups described in the article of the opening post. These religious groups are bypassing scholarship to lobby publishers and schools boards for favorable representations of their religions in history books. Do you have any examples of secular groups doing the same thing for their views? Let's get specific. Your big example earlier in this thread was the Reformation. Do you have examples of any secular groups promoting views of the Reformation not supported by scholarship by lobbying publishers and schools boards? --Percy
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 135 by randman, posted 02-05-2006 6:44 PM | | randman has not replied |
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Percy
Member Posts: 22500 From: New Hampshire Joined: 12-23-2000 Member Rating: 4.9
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Message 141 of 194 (284562)
02-07-2006 10:02 AM
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Reply to: Message 140 by Silent H
02-07-2006 6:52 AM
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Re: Fundimentalism, as per message 1, is not just Christian fundamentalism
holmes writes: Remember my thread on the rind study? I haven't read the thread.
I think its safe to say that secularists will resort to legal action, when they feel any of their viewpoints (of any nature) are being misrepresented, or facts which will deny their beliefs are presented. My argument wasn't about whether secularists resorting to legal action when their think their views are misrepresented. It was about Randman's contention that secular groups had done the same thing as the religious groups described in the article of the opening post, which is to lobby publishers and school boards for changes not supported by scholarship. Legal action, while more coercive, is pretty much the same thing, so I see no problem including it, too. If you think some of the evidence from your Rind thread is appropriate, my suggestion is to bring it here to this thread. If you have off-topic moderator comments you'd like to make, I suggest you make them in the appropriate thread. --Percy
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 140 by Silent H, posted 02-07-2006 6:52 AM | | Silent H has replied |
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Percy
Member Posts: 22500 From: New Hampshire Joined: 12-23-2000 Member Rating: 4.9
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Re: Does seeking relief under the law=lobbying?
I wasn't tyring to equate the lobbying avenues with the legal. I was trying to get Randman to support his contention that secularists are doing the same thing as the religious groups described in the article of the opening post. The closest he came was making vague accusations of legal action by secularist groups. With Randman you can't be too picky, so if that's as close as he can come to supporting his original contention then I'm happy to let him go with it. AbE: I don't think I was clear enough above. When I said legal action was pretty much the same thing I only meant with regard to the motivation, in this case to forward one's views by bypassing scholarship. In other words, if Randman would like to present examples of secular groups seeking representation by legal means of views contrary to scholarship in support of his contention that secular groups do the same thing as the religious groups in the article, then I think for the sake of this discussion that that is close enough. --Percy This message has been edited by Percy, 02-07-2006 10:56 AM
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