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Author Topic:   What we must accept if we accept evolution Part 2
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3911 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 181 of 301 (283111)
02-01-2006 9:58 AM
Reply to: Message 165 by Funkaloyd
02-01-2006 2:50 AM


Re: Is the concept of a "Fall" not a viable excuse?
As far as I can see, all you've showed is that a literal interpretation of the Genesis creation account is incompatible with evolution. Not many would dispute that.
Thats not even true. A literal interpretation of Genesis does not necessarily lead to concepts such as The Fall (at least the way YECs describe it) or no death before sin. These are ad-hoc reasonings that that only YECs add on to a literal interpretation of Genesis.
The only thing Faith has shown is that her ad-hoc additions to Genesis which produce a character of God who is by definition incompatable with evolution is actually incompatable with evolution. Her entire argument is one big long winded tautology.

No smoking signs by gas stations. No religion in the public square. The government should keep us from being engulfed in flames on earth, and that is pretty much it. -- Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by Funkaloyd, posted 02-01-2006 2:50 AM Funkaloyd has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 197 by Funkaloyd, posted 02-01-2006 7:30 PM Jazzns has not replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 182 of 301 (283122)
02-01-2006 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 176 by Parasomnium
02-01-2006 8:20 AM


Re: nihilism and evolution
You're drunk.
On the contrary, I'm dangerously sober.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by Parasomnium, posted 02-01-2006 8:20 AM Parasomnium has not replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 183 of 301 (283127)
02-01-2006 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 172 by Funkaloyd
02-01-2006 6:25 AM


Re: robinrohan once again makes unsupported assertions.
But you can believe in something very similar to the Fall, right? I.e. free will introducing suffering into the Universe, against the creator's wishes.
I'm talking about a Fall that includes the fall of Nature, caused by sin.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by Funkaloyd, posted 02-01-2006 6:25 AM Funkaloyd has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 184 of 301 (283130)
02-01-2006 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 168 by robinrohan
02-01-2006 4:53 AM


Re: robinrohan once again makes unsupported assertions.
robinrohan writes:
You don't seem to know what the topic is, Jar. Let me explain it to you.
The topic (part of it) is as follows: I am contending that if you believe in evolution, you cannot believe in God.
Yes robin, I fully understand that is your assertion...

and it has been refuted!

You say it is impossible to believe, I say look, here are people that do believe. That refutes your assertion. There is no way around it unless you show the same willfull ignorance as the YECs.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by robinrohan, posted 02-01-2006 4:53 AM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 186 by robinrohan, posted 02-01-2006 11:12 AM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 185 of 301 (283132)
02-01-2006 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 174 by Faith
02-01-2006 8:05 AM


Re: Is the concept of a "Fall" not a viable excuse?
That has been traditional Christianity, the religion of the West, until the last 150 years or so, when Liberal Christianity came along, which is what those 10000 on jar's list represent -- including Deism, which is basically an earlier form of Liberal Christianity.
It is not a matter of liberal Christianity Faith, it is a matter of FACT. It is not possible to believe a literal Genesis unless you deny GOD's creation.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by Faith, posted 02-01-2006 8:05 AM Faith has not replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 186 of 301 (283134)
02-01-2006 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 184 by jar
02-01-2006 10:59 AM


Re: robinrohan once again makes unsupported assertions.
You say it is impossible to believe, I say look, here are people that do believe. That refutes your assertion.
No, it doesn't.
1. physical possibility: it is physically possible for me to believe that God is a tomato in my garden patch.
2. logical possibility: the belief in evolution and your God at the same time is logically impossible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by jar, posted 02-01-2006 10:59 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 187 by jar, posted 02-01-2006 11:16 AM robinrohan has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 187 of 301 (283136)
02-01-2006 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 186 by robinrohan
02-01-2006 11:12 AM


Re: robinrohan once again makes unsupported assertions.
Robin
Is this an accurate quote of what you said?
robinrohan writes:
You don't seem to know what the topic is, Jar. Let me explain it to you.
The topic (part of it) is as follows: I am contending that if you believe in evolution, you cannot believe in God.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by robinrohan, posted 02-01-2006 11:12 AM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 188 by robinrohan, posted 02-01-2006 11:18 AM jar has replied
 Message 190 by Modulous, posted 02-01-2006 11:37 AM jar has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 188 of 301 (283138)
02-01-2006 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 187 by jar
02-01-2006 11:16 AM


Re: robinrohan once again makes unsupported assertions.
It's jerked out of context.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by jar, posted 02-01-2006 11:16 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 189 by jar, posted 02-01-2006 11:26 AM robinrohan has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 189 of 301 (283144)
02-01-2006 11:26 AM
Reply to: Message 188 by robinrohan
02-01-2006 11:18 AM


Re: robinrohan once again makes unsupported assertions.
Is it what you said?
That is a yes or no question.
But I will also try refute your assertion that it is logigically impossible to believe in GOD, and also accept the TOE. It's a subject that I've addressed here at EvC numerous times but repetition is often good.
First, any belief in a supernatural being is basically an irrational, unprovable action. It is an act of Faith and not Science.
Would you agree with that?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by robinrohan, posted 02-01-2006 11:18 AM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 193 by robinrohan, posted 02-01-2006 7:18 PM jar has replied

Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 190 of 301 (283153)
02-01-2006 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 187 by jar
02-01-2006 11:16 AM


quote mining
Creationist: Didn't Darwin say:
quote:
To suppose that the eye with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest degree
Evo: Its jerked out of context
Creationist: But is it an accurate quote of what he said?
jar writes:
Is this an accurate quote of what you said?
The answer is yes, but it is a mined quote. The very next sentence at least should be added, if not the rest of the paragraph:
rr writes:
By God I mean all-good, all-powerful God, which I believe is your standard Western version of God. When I say one cannot believe in God and evolution at the same time, I mean logically you can not. Of course, you can believe emotionally or irrationally anything you damned well please, and so can anyone else.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by jar, posted 02-01-2006 11:16 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 191 by jar, posted 02-01-2006 11:46 AM Modulous has not replied
 Message 194 by iano, posted 02-01-2006 7:19 PM Modulous has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 191 of 301 (283154)
02-01-2006 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 190 by Modulous
02-01-2006 11:37 AM


Re: quote mining
In my reply to robin I am trying to address his additional concerns.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by Modulous, posted 02-01-2006 11:37 AM Modulous has not replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 192 of 301 (283204)
02-01-2006 2:28 PM
Reply to: Message 171 by PaulK
02-01-2006 6:00 AM


Re: robinrohan once again makes unsupported assertions.
There are 3 possible positions
1) The existence of death and suffering can be reconciled with the existence of the sort of God you are discussing.
2) The existence of death and suffering cannot be reconciled with this sort of God.
3) The existence of death and suffering can only be reconciled with this sort of God only if evolution is rejected.
You are a fine logician, Paulk.
More later.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by PaulK, posted 02-01-2006 6:00 AM PaulK has not replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 193 of 301 (283278)
02-01-2006 7:18 PM
Reply to: Message 189 by jar
02-01-2006 11:26 AM


Re: robinrohan once again makes unsupported assertions.
First, any belief in a supernatural being is basically an irrational, unprovable action. It is an act of Faith and not Science.
Would you agree with that?
I thought people believed in God because they thought they had a good reason to do so.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by jar, posted 02-01-2006 11:26 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 195 by jar, posted 02-01-2006 7:21 PM robinrohan has replied
 Message 199 by NosyNed, posted 02-01-2006 7:42 PM robinrohan has not replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 194 of 301 (283279)
02-01-2006 7:19 PM
Reply to: Message 190 by Modulous
02-01-2006 11:37 AM


Re: quote mining
Deleted content
This message has been edited by iano, 02-Feb-2006 12:22 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by Modulous, posted 02-01-2006 11:37 AM Modulous has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 195 of 301 (283280)
02-01-2006 7:21 PM
Reply to: Message 193 by robinrohan
02-01-2006 7:18 PM


Re: robinrohan once again makes unsupported assertions.
I thought people believed in God because they thought they had a good reason to do so.
I imagine that do think they have a good reason for their belief. What does that have to do with what I asked?
jar writes:
First, any belief in a supernatural being is basically an irrational, unprovable action. It is an act of Faith and not Science.
Would you agree with that?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 193 by robinrohan, posted 02-01-2006 7:18 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 196 by robinrohan, posted 02-01-2006 7:24 PM jar has replied

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