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Author Topic:   George Bush protecting your civil liberties by breaking them
Tal
Member (Idle past 5676 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 166 of 220 (283218)
02-01-2006 3:44 PM
Reply to: Message 163 by SuperNintendo Chalmers
02-01-2006 3:34 PM


Re: Like I asked you before
So basically what you are saying is that the president now has war-time powers forever and the constitution is suspended.
Refer to the message above. He is authorized by the Constitution.
You can not win a war on terror and declare the end to hostilities. So either the constituion is permenanently suspended or we aren't really at war.
If he is authorized by the Constitution, how is it suspended?
And yes, we are really at war.

The Muslim women have a no lesser role than that of men in the war of liberation; they manufacture men
Hamas Charter
What's your favorite line?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by SuperNintendo Chalmers, posted 02-01-2006 3:34 PM SuperNintendo Chalmers has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 178 by SuperNintendo Chalmers, posted 02-01-2006 9:47 PM Tal has replied

  
Tal
Member (Idle past 5676 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 167 of 220 (283219)
02-01-2006 3:45 PM
Reply to: Message 165 by crashfrog
02-01-2006 3:42 PM


The fact that none of those things are true.
Proof? Evidence? Link? Anything?
Impeech him then.

The Muslim women have a no lesser role than that of men in the war of liberation; they manufacture men
Hamas Charter
What's your favorite line?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by crashfrog, posted 02-01-2006 3:42 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 168 by crashfrog, posted 02-01-2006 3:48 PM Tal has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 168 of 220 (283220)
02-01-2006 3:48 PM
Reply to: Message 167 by Tal
02-01-2006 3:45 PM


Proof? Evidence? Link? Anything?
When a known liar makes a statement, the onus of evidence is on he who offers his statements as evidence, not he who challenges them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by Tal, posted 02-01-2006 3:45 PM Tal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 170 by Tal, posted 02-01-2006 3:52 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3978
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 169 of 220 (283221)
02-01-2006 3:50 PM
Reply to: Message 161 by Tal
02-01-2006 2:50 PM


Is there anybody in there?
Maybe that's because we've been listening to Al Qeada conversations since then?
Hello.
I don't have any problem with listening to Al Qaeda conversations anywhere in the world. And I'm grateful for the Al Qaeda cell they busted up in, uh, er, and the one in, um, ah, too. Safe as houses, all of us, thanks to illegal wiretapping, yessir.
You repeat that disloyal/comfort to the enemy line to anyone who thinks Bush shouldn't wiretap American citizens without a warrant.
You continue to refuse to respond to the fact that the condemnation of the program comes from every part of the U.S. political spectrum, from far right to far left.
That makes maintaining a contrary fiction kind of like, well, sorta like...oh, not a lie, that nasty word...a field expediency, perhaps?
I see you've trotted out another quote from Bush claiming that to expose his illegal wiretapping gave aid and comfort to the enemy: like they didn't know we would! Truly, remarkably, bizarrely unbelievable.
Once more, slowly:
Critics
of
illegal
wiretapping
support
eavesdropping
on
Al
Qaeda.
You distort the record (just like Chickenhawk Karl Rove does) and claim Democrats are apparently opposed to listening to Al Qaeda calls, but let me ask you this: This is just partisanship, right? You DO know that many Republicans object? Either they are also treasonous lefties OR the enitre charge is bogus. Pick one.
Now, can you give me an operational scenario that sketches out realistic instances where Al Qaeda would call to or from the U.S. and NOT consider the likelihood of eavesdropping? That is, not until they read the NY Times, and say, "Aaiii yahhh tollla aaahh! The Americans are trying to listen to our calls! Who knew??!!"
The issue is not wiretapping Al Qaeda calls, and the issue is not even wiretapping American citizens who might be talking to Al Qaeda--the issue is warrantless wiretaps of Americans. Which is illegal. Period.
You copy that, good buddy?
Goodbye. See ya in the camps.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by Tal, posted 02-01-2006 2:50 PM Tal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 171 by Tal, posted 02-01-2006 3:54 PM Omnivorous has not replied

  
Tal
Member (Idle past 5676 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 170 of 220 (283223)
02-01-2006 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by crashfrog
02-01-2006 3:48 PM


When a known liar makes a statement, the onus of evidence is on he who offers his statements as evidence, not he who challenges them.
Ah, so you have zero evidence, zero links, zero sources, or zero anything really.

The Muslim women have a no lesser role than that of men in the war of liberation; they manufacture men
Hamas Charter
What's your favorite line?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by crashfrog, posted 02-01-2006 3:48 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
Tal
Member (Idle past 5676 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 171 of 220 (283225)
02-01-2006 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 169 by Omnivorous
02-01-2006 3:50 PM


Re: Is there anybody in there?
This is just partisanship, right? You DO know that many Republicans object? Either they are also treasonous lefties OR the enitre charge is bogus.
The entire charge is bogus.
The issue is not wiretapping Al Qaeda calls, and the issue is not even wiretapping American citizens who might be talking to Al Qaeda--the issue is warrantless wiretaps of Americans.
Wiretapping Americans who are talking to known or suspected members of Al Qeada.
This message has been edited by Tal, 02-01-2006 03:55 PM

The Muslim women have a no lesser role than that of men in the war of liberation; they manufacture men
Hamas Charter
What's your favorite line?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by Omnivorous, posted 02-01-2006 3:50 PM Omnivorous has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by arachnophilia, posted 02-01-2006 3:57 PM Tal has not replied
 Message 173 by crashfrog, posted 02-01-2006 3:58 PM Tal has not replied
 Message 177 by iano, posted 02-01-2006 8:44 PM Tal has not replied
 Message 184 by Silent H, posted 02-02-2006 11:43 AM Tal has not replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 172 of 220 (283227)
02-01-2006 3:57 PM
Reply to: Message 171 by Tal
02-01-2006 3:54 PM


Re: Is there anybody in there?
Wiretapping Americans who are talking to known or suspected members of Al Qeada.
talking to known members of al qaeda? get a warrant.
talking to suspected members of al qaeda? show probable cause -- get a warrant.
see? that was easy.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by Tal, posted 02-01-2006 3:54 PM Tal has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 173 of 220 (283228)
02-01-2006 3:58 PM
Reply to: Message 171 by Tal
02-01-2006 3:54 PM


Re: Is there anybody in there?
Wiretapping Americans who are talking to known or suspected members of Al Qeada.
Based on what evidence? You're leveling a pretty serious charge against a whole lot of people, so what's your evidence that this is true? The Administration certainly hasn't given any.
Do you just trust them not to spy on anybody but bad people? Why on Earth would you?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by Tal, posted 02-01-2006 3:54 PM Tal has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 174 of 220 (283276)
02-01-2006 7:14 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by Tal
02-01-2006 11:18 AM


Re: Like I asked you before
It's legal to wiretap Americans without a warrant?
Since when?
I am not claiming that we shouldn't wiretap. To the contrary, I think it's quite important to have the ability to do so.
But when we start wiretapping citizens without judicial oversight, that is unconstitutional.
Our right to be free from our government secretly eavesdropping upon our private phone conversations unless they have shown to a court that there is good reason to do so is a large part of what makes the American Constitution and Bill of Rights two the most amazing freedom-protecting documents in the all of history.
How dare Bush decide he doesn't need judicial oversight to spy on us?
How dare he think he's above the constitution?
This message has been edited by schrafinator, 02-01-2006 07:20 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by Tal, posted 02-01-2006 11:18 AM Tal has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 176 by NosyNed, posted 02-01-2006 7:48 PM nator has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 175 of 220 (283282)
02-01-2006 7:24 PM
Reply to: Message 154 by Tal
02-01-2006 1:28 PM


Re: Like I asked you before
quote:
I don't know what is so hard to understand about this. If you are talking to Al Qeada, we want to know about it.
And I think we should know about people doing this.
But you need to get a warrant from a judge so there is a record of you doing it, and that there is a record that you showed that there was just cause for you to do that.
The fact that the president isn't above getting a warrant is what makes us different from most of the governments we say we are different from.
Oh, and habeas corpus too, except Americans don't have that right anymore, either.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by Tal, posted 02-01-2006 1:28 PM Tal has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 180 by arachnophilia, posted 02-02-2006 6:14 AM nator has not replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 176 of 220 (283290)
02-01-2006 7:48 PM
Reply to: Message 174 by nator
02-01-2006 7:14 PM


Protection from government
lol, schraf, and all of this is from the same people who excuse the proliferation of firearms in your country because the "right to bear arms" is there to protect against governments.
As if even a heavily armed citizenry could stand up against the government and army (unless the army mutinied). Nuts!
So here we have a case where real protection is being eroded and these same people are all for removing protection from government gone wrong.
All we out here can do is shake our heads (and look over our shoulders nervously) at the antics.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by nator, posted 02-01-2006 7:14 PM nator has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 177 of 220 (283296)
02-01-2006 8:44 PM
Reply to: Message 171 by Tal
02-01-2006 3:54 PM


Re: Is there anybody in there?
Hamas Charter: what's your favorite line?
Dunno... but a quick scan failed to reveal that most sought after word of the entire human race. Love. Any doctrine which fails to address the most basic of human needs posits an incomprehensible god
The tone struck me to be remarkably like the speeches of Adolf Hitler http://www.adolfhitler.ws/lib/speeches/text/speeches.htm I don't mean to draw any crass parallels but one most certainly would have to have been there....or there afterwards to really get it.
This message has been edited by iano, 02-Feb-2006 01:45 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by Tal, posted 02-01-2006 3:54 PM Tal has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 179 by Omnivorous, posted 02-01-2006 9:55 PM iano has not replied
 Message 181 by arachnophilia, posted 02-02-2006 6:17 AM iano has replied

  
SuperNintendo Chalmers
Member (Idle past 5833 days)
Posts: 772
From: Bartlett, IL, USA
Joined: 12-27-2005


Message 178 of 220 (283306)
02-01-2006 9:47 PM
Reply to: Message 166 by Tal
02-01-2006 3:44 PM


We are not at War
I've been giving this a lot of thought and there is no way can be in a state of war.
War exists when it is declared on another nation-state. The state of war ceases to exist when either we accept the surrender of said nation-state (Japan) or defeat the government of said nation-state (Iraq).
A war on terror is not a war anymore than a war on crime or a war on drugs.
When does a war on terror end? Can it end? For this reason it is absolutely unacceptable for the president to think he has war-time powers.... Allowing the president to do this allows the president to declar war on "anything" and violate the constitution all he wants.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by Tal, posted 02-01-2006 3:44 PM Tal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 190 by Tal, posted 02-02-2006 1:10 PM SuperNintendo Chalmers has not replied

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3978
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 179 of 220 (283307)
02-01-2006 9:55 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by iano
02-01-2006 8:44 PM


Re: Is there anybody in there?
iano writes:
Dunno... but a quick scan failed to reveal that most sought after word of the entire human race. Love. Any doctrine which fails to address the most basic of human needs posits an incomprehensible god
Yeah, like the Constitution of the United States.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by iano, posted 02-01-2006 8:44 PM iano has not replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 180 of 220 (283336)
02-02-2006 6:14 AM
Reply to: Message 175 by nator
02-01-2006 7:24 PM


Re: Like I asked you before
Oh, and habeas corpus too, except Americans don't have that right anymore, either.
but LINCOLN suspended that, so that makes it ok! liberals love lincoln!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by nator, posted 02-01-2006 7:24 PM nator has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 189 by macaroniandcheese, posted 02-02-2006 12:26 PM arachnophilia has not replied

  
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