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Author | Topic: Second Law of Thermodynamics | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Coragyps Member (Idle past 754 days) Posts: 5553 From: Snyder, Texas, USA Joined: |
The chemical reactions that cause life to proceed starting with the original formation of polymers of the 20 amino acids used in life will not ever, never and absolutely will not proceed on their own spontaneously. Untrue. Carbonyl sulfide, a common gas in volcanos, has been found to facilitate polymerization of amino acids into at least pentamers in water solution. That's not even considering drying-out puddles, a slightly more brute-force way to polymerize them. TSRI - News & Views
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
First we were tallking about processes that make and sustain life which are both physical, chemical and informational.. all of which have distinctly thermodynamic considerations. Does transferring random noise over wires get considered thermodynamically different than transferring Shakespeare assuming the same amount of energy is transferred in the same time period?
However there is no complexity whatsoever just change in order. Water carries no informational code like DNA. We are not talking about infodynamics but thermodynamics. The two have analogies but they are not the same. As such information is out of scope of this discussion. Feel free to open a new topic on it, its an interesting subject. We are talking about energy transfers, and problems that evolution might face. So we need to find an energy transfer that is forbidden by THERMOdynamics.
Water of course has and is used as a working medium for superheated steam and the production of electricity. What's your point? What's yours? Mine is that
quote:
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Silent H Member (Idle past 5839 days) Posts: 7405 From: satellite of love Joined: |
We are not talking about infodynamics but thermodynamics. The two have analogies but they are not the same. Heheheh... nice. In case you didn't know certain members of the ID movement believe information should be treated exactly the same, and one in particular (Dembski) makes claims as if he has come up with a new law (2LoT turned into 2LoI). Just wanted to make sure you know where some of this might be coming from. holmes "What you need is sustained outrage...there's far too much unthinking respect given to authority." (M.Ivins)
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
Yeah - I've heard that before. Hell, I debated with the great and glorious Jerry.
The equations and maths has many analogies but the problem seems to arise when people (esp IDers) try and cross the terms over. I'm no expert in either area, but I can smell something fishy when the bass is frying.
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Evopeach Member (Idle past 6634 days) Posts: 224 From: Stroud, OK USA Joined: |
First you fail to note that the amino acids produced were not those required for proteins, enzynes, nucleic acids and DNA. Second the amino acids were as always and forever racemic mixtures of levo and dextro forms which are absolutely useless for making the polypeptides that make up the molecules of life. There was no hint of how this separation or creation of all lefthanded or righthanded versions of the twenty acids could be naturally effected. There is nothing new here other than a different set of carefully crafted reaction conditions crreated by scientists. Let alone how the products could be used for life prcesses. The molecules formed are racemic mixtures of both forma and absolutely useless for the problem at hand.
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Evopeach Member (Idle past 6634 days) Posts: 224 From: Stroud, OK USA Joined: |
I never said they were the same. The Braxton paper makes the differences clear and the analogies clear. It also accounts for the entropic work necessary to order and sequence the optically pure acids into chains suitable for carrying the genetic code or instuections/information necessary for life as we observe it and theoretically contenance it.
Chemistry unaided by codes and interpretive processes cannever explain the operation of a human cell. Codes and interpretive systems never arise randomly.
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
There have been some great discussion on this.
Try:
Message 168 or
Message 151 both threads are still open, so you can still contribute!
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1487 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
Second the amino acids were as always and forever racemic mixtures of levo and dextro forms which are absolutely useless for making the polypeptides that make up the molecules of life. There was no hint of how this separation or creation of all lefthanded or righthanded versions of the twenty acids could be naturally effected. This is a very common misapprehension; so common that Talkorigins has a page on it:
quote: from CB040: Left-handed amino acids
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Evopeach Member (Idle past 6634 days) Posts: 224 From: Stroud, OK USA Joined: |
Two examples would be the ETSI peo
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Modulous Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
I never said they were the same. The Braxton paper makes the differences clear and the analogies clear. It also accounts for the entropic work necessary to order and sequence the optically pure acids into chains suitable for carrying the genetic code or instuections/information necessary for life as we observe it and theoretically contenance it. Chemistry unaided by codes and interpretive processes cannever explain the operation of a human cell. Codes and interpretive systems never arise randomly. Most of the above is information related and would be a good start in an thread based on same. PNT? Do you have any information (heh) with regards to some kind of energy transfer that is forbidden by thermodynamics that is required for evolution?
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Evopeach Member (Idle past 6634 days) Posts: 224 From: Stroud, OK USA Joined: |
Since the naturalistic separation of racemic mixtures of amion acids from basic monommers has been the most problimatical issue in the theory anyone who could propose a realistic primal environment and demonstrate such would win the Nobel prixe. It has not been done.
There is no evidence that the first replicator could possible be as simple as described. That is another fairy tale.
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Admin Director Posts: 13014 From: EvC Forum Joined: Member Rating: 1.9 |
Am I a potted palm? Funny, I don't feel like a potted palm. I thought I was a mighty moderator, but maybe not. I thought members feared my every word, but maybe I'm actually just a houseplant! If I were really a moderator no member would ever consider ignoring even the merest hint that perhaps this isn't the right thread for this discussion.
Seriously, folks, this thread was just the old familiar assertion that evolution violates 2LOT because everything runs down, not up. Evopeach is jumping from 2LOT to information theory because there are theoretical transformations between the two. That doesn't make them the same topic in this moderator's opinion. If someone would like to propose a new topic I'll try to approve it as soon as I can, but I'm closing this one down.
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