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Author Topic:   What we must accept if we accept evolution Part 2
Faith 
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Message 217 of 301 (283423)
02-02-2006 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 213 by clpMINI
02-02-2006 12:01 PM


Re: The ToE and Gods
Death was not part of God's creation. It is part of the ToE, in fact essential to it, it is driven by death.
quote:
You've mentioned death and suffering alot throughout this thread.
Yes, it is natural if evolution is true, and treated as natural by any God that is compatible with evolution.
Are you thinking specifically about humuan death and suffering, or do other animals count too?
What about plants? They may not suffer as we think of it, but they certainly die. Did micro-organisms also live forever? Did no one ever stub their toe in the garden of eden?
Animals and humans only. I don't include plants or microorganisms, and I don't think any pain, even of stubbing the toe, existed in Eden. Others think even plants count as life, and that eating them is cruelty, think eating dirt is the only moral solution to the problem, but I think plants were given for food, have no feelings and are in a different class.
And I think that death most certainly was part of God's creation. He created a heaven and a hell for everyone to go to when they die.
Not until after the Fall. It was the Fall that brought death and Hell into existence. The original Creation was good, without death and destruction.
Fianlly, do you think that death necessary?
Now it is. No living thing escapes it now. But before the Fall it didn't exist.
But this is pretty much off topic.
This message has been edited by Faith, 02-02-2006 12:10 PM
This message has been edited by Faith, 02-02-2006 12:17 PM

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1434 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 219 of 301 (283440)
02-02-2006 1:23 PM
Reply to: Message 218 by crashfrog
02-02-2006 1:01 PM


Re: The ToE and Gods
I don't think there were any accidents in Eden at all. I think perfection means that people don't even stub their toes, that their perceptions are perfect and such things don't happen. The rock doesn't jump, they just know exactly where it is and miss it. That's my guess. No injury, no death, no pain, no accidents, no collisions, no mistakes. They had the potential to fall into that state though.
Fortunately we won't even be able to fall into that state in heaven --or in the new earth or the New Jerusalem. {abe: and since Jesus was able to walk through walls after the resurrection, and we will have bodies like His, I suppose that is another possible way it could happen -- we'll just walk through rocks.}
This message has been edited by Faith, 02-02-2006 01:35 PM

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1434 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 238 of 301 (283903)
02-04-2006 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 237 by nwr
02-04-2006 10:53 AM


Re: on Belief
We just have to assume that induction is valid.
quote:
Induction is not valid. Fortunately, science does not require any such assumption.
Maybe I missed something here, but can someone explain what this means, that "induction is not valid?" You mean it's not valid AT ALL, or in this particular context, or what?

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1434 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 240 of 301 (283905)
02-04-2006 1:30 PM
Reply to: Message 239 by Omnivorous
02-04-2006 1:28 PM


Re: on Belief
Well, yes, conclusions from inductive reasoning are always tentative until you apply other tests, but can you explain what is meant on this particular subject?

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Faith 
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Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 243 of 301 (283915)
02-04-2006 2:05 PM
Reply to: Message 197 by Funkaloyd
02-01-2006 7:30 PM


Re: Is the concept of a "Fall" not a viable excuse?
I normally see literalism as a synonym of creationism and fundamentalism, but you're right. The same goes for the identification of the serpent as Satan; it doesn't follow from a literal reading, but is instead added on.
No, his identity is REVEALED, not "added on," revealed in the Book of Revelation:
quote:
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1434 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 245 of 301 (283917)
02-04-2006 2:08 PM
Reply to: Message 242 by nwr
02-04-2006 2:03 PM


Re: Validity of induction
I have to see how you answer Modulous then.
And I have to ask, so that leaves only deduction as a valid logical method? So you have to start with a theory you think up and then test it and that's the only valid method? But I would think induction could be a way to ARRIVE AT a theory that you could then test.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1434 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 250 of 301 (283978)
02-04-2006 6:02 PM
Reply to: Message 249 by robinrohan
02-04-2006 5:21 PM


Re: on Belief
Usually you are so clear I'm surprised I can't figure out what you are saying about the physical causation of mind/thoughts etc. You've said it many times but I'm still not getting it. I get the two senses of "because" but I don't get your overall point.
All our beliefs are physically caused, since there is nothing but the physical; therefore, they are true only accidentally.
I think I get the logical point, but I can't imagine something being true "only accidentally" -- if it's true it's true.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1434 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 254 of 301 (284011)
02-04-2006 7:54 PM
Reply to: Message 253 by nwr
02-04-2006 7:40 PM


Re: on Belief
Why do you claim that physical causation must result in beliefs being accidental?
{ABE: It isn't "beliefs" that are accidental, but anything we think is true happening in fact to BE true}
This much I think I get: Because there is no actual self or *I* that is the generator of the idea, thought, belief. It's all an illusion. Beliefs, thoughts, mind, sense of self, all are just part of this automaton that is merely an epiphenomenon of the physical entity that came about by the purely physical processes of evolution. These patterns were selected by physical processes to enhance survival. That makes all the thought processes "automatic" in a sense, or preprogrammed in a sense, rather than intended. Without intention any correspondence they may have with actual fact or truth is purely accidental. I think.
This message has been edited by Faith, 02-04-2006 08:15 PM

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1434 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 256 of 301 (284029)
02-04-2006 8:35 PM
Reply to: Message 255 by Omnivorous
02-04-2006 8:30 PM


Re: on Belief
I would guess that the correspondences could be pretty accurate -- though face it, how often are they? But surely evolution selected according to the accuracy of the thoughts -- not the engine, but the thoughts -- since it is the thoughts that make the difference, direct the actions. In any case, even if they are accurate, they are still "accidental" in the sense that there is no *I* thinking them, they are merely automatically produced.
This message has been edited by Faith, 02-04-2006 09:24 PM

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1434 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 258 of 301 (284042)
02-04-2006 9:15 PM
Reply to: Message 257 by nwr
02-04-2006 9:10 PM


Re: on Belief
It is looking to me like an argument from ignorance. "I cannot understand how physical causation can result in an 'I'; therefore it doesn't."
That reads like an argument from common sense to me, as neither you nor anybody else can understand how physical causation can result in an *I* either. On the face of it, the idea is absurd.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1434 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 260 of 301 (284048)
02-04-2006 9:39 PM
Reply to: Message 259 by Omnivorous
02-04-2006 9:28 PM


Re: on Belief
Well, I suppose that's about as plausible and sophisticated a theory as we're going to get for how it could have happened.
But I always feel impatiently like saying: Do you really not just KNOW that you are an immortal soul?
But that's off topic.
And getting back on topic means recognizing that this thread was supposed to be detailing what we have to believe if we believe evolution.
And believing that the *I* came up from the icky ooze is one of the things we have to believe.
And your theory is as good as any I guess.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1434 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 262 of 301 (284063)
02-04-2006 11:03 PM


If life was made for woe and death
How hard it's then to think it sweet,
What stood the man up on his feet,
Infused with his Creator's breath.
What Maker'd cause the blood to pound
And fill him ruddy, made for love
Reflected back to God above,
But then would spill it on the ground
As Cain did Abel's? No, as it spilt
God mourned its cry. It stained the earth --
Since red with crying death and birth.
Though it is man's, God's borne the guilt.
Or was it wordless bleeding stuff
That wrote the patterns in the germs,
Connecting, unconnecting terms,
Trying, failing, now the rough
Draft finds its voice? A bloody muse
Without a choice then sighs. Though blind,
Mere matter did in fact make mind,
Without intending I's and you's.
So there you have it, Flesh made word
Or Word made flesh? Which more absurd?
This message has been edited by Faith, 02-06-2006 11:53 AM

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1434 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 273 of 301 (284317)
02-06-2006 6:25 AM
Reply to: Message 272 by robinrohan
02-05-2006 3:02 PM


Re: the aesthete and the nihilist
An aesthetic approach to life is quite reasonable if one accepts the idea that life has no purpose.
The scientifically minded keep insisting that Darwinism has no role in any of this sense of life's having no purpose, but I certainly remember its being the case that it strongly affected the general atheism around me, and my own as well. Inventing one's own identity/life was a romantic notion my generation certainly had; and the aesthetic attitude as you describe it as well, although I don't recall its being called that -- living for experience. Because life has no formal purpose, humanity no longer has a noble standing. It was commonly said that three great thinkers had knocked humanity off our pedestal, Darwin, Marx and Freud --I think, though now I can't remember why Marx was in that company.
All this nitpicking about definitions, about what precisely the ToE may be properly scientifically considered to refer to is just a smoke screen to confuse things. Darwinism's influence on 20th century intellectuals was tremendous and it was all about destroying the meaning of life. Nietzsche's brand of nihilism was a direct response to Darwinism. So were Kierkegaard, Dostoevsky, all the Existentialists. But the "scientists" just go on denying it.
This tunnel-visioned answer that we are all just supposed to somehow make our own meaning is psychologically obtuse. Should I bother mentioning the unbelievably dreary accusation that it's about personalities -- that those who regard Darwinism as a challenge to traditional views of humanity just haven't "grown up?" This is a clash of sensibilities here, perhaps, the artistic and the ...I'd like to say "philistine" but that would be snobby; I hesitate to say "scientific" but I guess that's all that would be understood.
Sorry, it's still the middle of the night for me and I'm annoyed at how this thread has been treated.
Anyway I'm glad you explained what you meant about "aesthete" being the same as "nihilist" as I didn't get it either. Now I do.
This message has been edited by Faith, 02-06-2006 06:37 AM

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Replies to this message:
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 Message 276 by JavaMan, posted 02-06-2006 8:52 AM Faith has replied
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1434 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 275 of 301 (284324)
02-06-2006 6:57 AM
Reply to: Message 274 by PaulK
02-06-2006 6:55 AM


Re: the aesthete and the nihilist
Good morning to you, too, Paul. Have a good day.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1434 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 277 of 301 (284355)
02-06-2006 9:15 AM
Reply to: Message 276 by JavaMan
02-06-2006 8:52 AM


Re: the aesthete and the nihilist
This tunnel-visioned answer that we are all just supposed to somehow make our own meaning is psychologically obtuse.
quote:
We always make our own meaning. Even if that involves accepting a particular religious tradition.
Yes, we always make our own meaning but we make it out of what is culturally available, and the effect of Darwinism -- at least the psychological effect, especially on those who really think about such things -- is to abolish all objective or formal ground for meaning.
On this point Nietzsche, Kierkegaard and Dostoevsky were all agreed, even though the meaning chosen by the latter two was a Christian meaning.
The only difference for those of us who don't ignore the scientific evidence is that we can't base our sense of meaning on a special relationship with a supernatural being.
No, nobody here seems to have a sense of how much more was lost by Darwinism in an objective sense, of the larger Western philosophical framework in which humanity was given a noble place. This was built up from the predominantly Christian foundation of the West, but it certainly wasn't dependent on individual relationship with a supernatural being.
By the way, Nietzsche would have been horrified at being labelled a 'nihilist'. He considered himself the foremost 'anti-nihilist' - fighting a crusade against nihilist philosophies like Christianity!
Well fine, then define your terms. I am using it to refer to a morality-free and purpose-free and meaning-free philosophical, or even cultural, weltanschaung. Nietzsche predicted the loss of all moral frameworks as a result of the "death of God." He embraced this in his rejection of Christianity which was the West's main foundation of morality. He seemed both to lament and to celebrate the Antichrist of which he was the herald. I hate Nietzsche but I consider him perspicacious.
This message has been edited by Faith, 02-06-2006 09:27 AM

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Replies to this message:
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