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Author Topic:   What we must accept if we accept evolution Part 2
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 279 of 301 (284366)
02-06-2006 10:40 AM
Reply to: Message 278 by Omnivorous
02-06-2006 10:37 AM


Re: Good morning and thanks
Good morning to you, Omni, and thank you for the appreciation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 278 by Omnivorous, posted 02-06-2006 10:37 AM Omnivorous has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 281 of 301 (284368)
02-06-2006 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 280 by JavaMan
02-06-2006 10:43 AM


Re: the aesthete and the nihilist
That "for many of us" phrase kind of underscores what Darwinism did right there. Not alone of course, there were other influences. An unfortunately fitting epitaph for noble humanity your post. So very modern.

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 Message 280 by JavaMan, posted 02-06-2006 10:43 AM JavaMan has replied

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 286 of 301 (284446)
02-06-2006 4:48 PM
Reply to: Message 285 by Modulous
02-06-2006 3:28 PM


Of course it implies no purpose. All those thinkers I mentioned took it to imply no purpose. That was THE philosophical effect of Darwinism at the time and it continues as a general undertone in culture, the psychological undercurrent of all personal identity these days. Why can't this just be acknowledged? "Not providing one" is just a species of denial. If humanity is nothing more than something the physical universe tossed up by accident it most CERTAINLY implies NO PURPOSE to our existence, and it is psychologically FELT to imply no purpose too. There was no purpose to our just happening to get evolved, it could have not happened at any point along the way. There is simply nothing special about humanity in this view. Some entirely other kind of creature could have evolved as the pinnacle of the evolutionary tree. Again, just because WE can invent purposes doesn't change this fact.
I'm not talking about God (yahweh). I am talking about a hypothetical god. A creator god that happens to be cruel. Such a god can exist, have created us for a purpose and have created the 'cruel' evolutionary process. That is theologically consistent with a cruel god and logically consistent with evolution, assuming evolution is cruel.
But I believe Robin's point was that such a construct is not even believed by those who think it up. It's merely a logical construct that you couldn't care less about, so hypothetical it isn't even worth a passing thought, something you have hardly even thought about, just to the barest outlines. The point is that people DON'T believe in such a God and the Creator Gods they do believe in -- not the pantheons but the concepts of an omniscient omnipresent omnipotent God -- are logically incompatible with Darwinism (and let's use this term to cover all the elements involved since you protest the use of the ToE).

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 Message 287 by crashfrog, posted 02-06-2006 5:41 PM Faith has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 288 of 301 (284456)
02-06-2006 5:51 PM
Reply to: Message 287 by crashfrog
02-06-2006 5:41 PM


If humanity is nothing more than something the physical universe tossed up by accident it most CERTAINLY implies NO PURPOSE to our existence, and it is psychologically FELT to imply no purpose too.
=======
I just don't get it, Faith. I literally don't see the connection between "not having a purpose provided by Providence" and "not having a purpose at all."
I didn't say anything about Providence. All I'm talking about is what seems to be the obvious, logical and in fact historically verified inference about a lack of human purpose from Darwinism.
What, in your view, is inherent in the idea of "purpose" that prevents one's purpose from being something they determine for themselves?
Nothing whatever. You can determine your purpose all you like. That is in fact what people do with Darwinism, make up our own purposes, invent ourselves, our own morality, live as the Aesthete or the Punk or whatever one chooses. It's wide open, not at all being prevented, but the opposite -- there is no FORMAL OBJECTIVE purpose to humanity, so all these subjective invented purposes ARE what we have.
Again, just because WE can invent purposes doesn't change this fact.
=====
I don't understand why you so sneeringly dismiss the idea of a self-determined purpose.
I don't understand why you think I said that "sneeringly" and I also don't understand why you think I'm "dismissing" anything. Subjective self-invented purposes for our identities ARE what we have. What we DON'T have under Darwinism is an OBJECTIVE purpose for humanity.

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 Message 287 by crashfrog, posted 02-06-2006 5:41 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 289 by macaroniandcheese, posted 02-06-2006 5:58 PM Faith has not replied
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