Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 64 (9164 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,872 Year: 4,129/9,624 Month: 1,000/974 Week: 327/286 Day: 48/40 Hour: 2/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Should a Creationist be allowed to hold a position of Authority?
jar
Member (Idle past 422 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 91 of 162 (284930)
02-08-2006 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 86 by Buzsaw
02-08-2006 9:25 AM


You don't seem to understand what I asked.
I did not in any way provide a test that would exclude religious people, rather it is a test of their ability to examine evidence and make decisions based on the available evidence.
Not one of your points addresses the issue.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Buzsaw, posted 02-08-2006 9:25 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 422 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 92 of 162 (284931)
02-08-2006 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 85 by ohnhai
02-08-2006 8:44 AM


Re: second paragraph
So word the test solely on the age of the earth.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by ohnhai, posted 02-08-2006 8:44 AM ohnhai has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by ohnhai, posted 02-10-2006 6:36 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 422 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 93 of 162 (284933)
02-08-2006 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by clpMINI
02-08-2006 11:10 AM


Re: Our New Supreme Court Justice
I agree. I think it is a valid point and that no one who believes the universe or even the earth is only 6-10,000 years old should ever be allowed to hold a position where they need to make decisions that wil effct the lives of others.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by clpMINI, posted 02-08-2006 11:10 AM clpMINI has not replied

  
SuperNintendo Chalmers
Member (Idle past 5862 days)
Posts: 772
From: Bartlett, IL, USA
Joined: 12-27-2005


Message 94 of 162 (284939)
02-08-2006 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by Buzsaw
02-08-2006 9:25 AM


Misconceptions
1. Last century nearly 100 million citizens were slaughtered by their athiestic secularist governments, beginning with the Bolshevik Revolution. Scores of millions of the surviving citizenry lived in terror, fear, poverty and repression, hoping to escape to the land of the free where creationists abounded, being the majority voting block in their representative government. .
First of all the Soviet Union was not an atheist government. Didn't they OUTLAW religion? Why would an atheist outlaw religion? This is one thing believers don't understand..... to an atheist outlawing religion would be like outlawing the tooth fairy!
IMO, the soviet union was basically a theocracy where GOD = THE STATE. People there were taught that the state had agents with all kinds of powers (some even supernatural) including ESP, Clarivoyance, etc. Does that sound like something atheists would promote? (off-topic, but the soviet union wasn't socialist either. It was a oligarchial dictatorship).
The most blessed, free and prosperous nation in history, the US of A was designed, originated and headed by majority of creationists with the Bible, from which the creationist story originated, being used in the schools over 100 years after it's founding and another 100+ years previous to it's founding.
Completely false. How many times do we have to go over this? Many of the founding fathers including the most important (Jefferson) and one of the most important (franklin) were deists or atheists!!! In fact, one of the main themes of our new country was the freedom of religion and separation of church and state!
God fearing heads of state, having a sense of accountability to a higher power, will likely tend towards justice, equity and righteousness so as not to be held accountable in the after life judgement. This, imo, trumps the science argument as to origins, relative to how well one governs.
You can't be serious. 1000s of years of history has proven you absolutely wrong. Inquisitions, crusades, pogroms, fatwahs, stonings, burnings, have all gone on throughout history. The most religious governments on earth are located in the middle east.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Buzsaw, posted 02-08-2006 9:25 AM Buzsaw has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by randman, posted 02-10-2006 12:41 AM SuperNintendo Chalmers has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 95 of 162 (284944)
02-08-2006 12:28 PM


General Reply
The secularist persecutive and intollerant regimes of China, North Korea, Cuba, Laos, et al are modern examples of how citizens fare under secularist governments which restrict Christian worship and other activity. I'll take GWB any day over any of these. Which of you would prefer living under these regimes?

Gravity is God's glue that holds his universe together.

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by jar, posted 02-08-2006 12:33 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 97 by SuperNintendo Chalmers, posted 02-08-2006 12:52 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 98 by SuperNintendo Chalmers, posted 02-08-2006 12:52 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 422 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 96 of 162 (284948)
02-08-2006 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by Buzsaw
02-08-2006 12:28 PM


Re: General Reply is way OT
What does that have to do with the point of the thread.
No where do I propose that religious people be kept out of government.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Buzsaw, posted 02-08-2006 12:28 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
SuperNintendo Chalmers
Member (Idle past 5862 days)
Posts: 772
From: Bartlett, IL, USA
Joined: 12-27-2005


Message 97 of 162 (284961)
02-08-2006 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by Buzsaw
02-08-2006 12:28 PM


Re: General Reply
The secularist persecutive and intollerant regimes of China, North Korea, Cuba, Laos, et al are modern examples of how citizens fare under secularist governments which restrict Christian worship and other activity. I'll take GWB any day over any of these. Which of you would prefer living under these regimes?
Those regimes are irrelevant because they are no democracies.
A better example of a more secular democracy would be france.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Buzsaw, posted 02-08-2006 12:28 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
SuperNintendo Chalmers
Member (Idle past 5862 days)
Posts: 772
From: Bartlett, IL, USA
Joined: 12-27-2005


Message 98 of 162 (284962)
02-08-2006 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by Buzsaw
02-08-2006 12:28 PM


Bad comparison
The secularist persecutive and intollerant regimes of China, North Korea, Cuba, Laos, et al are modern examples of how citizens fare under secularist governments which restrict Christian worship and other activity. I'll take GWB any day over any of these. Which of you would prefer living under these regimes?
Those regimes are irrelevant because they are not democracies.
A better example of a more secular democracy would be france.
This message has been edited by SuperNintendo Chalmers, 02-08-2006 01:11 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Buzsaw, posted 02-08-2006 12:28 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by randman, posted 02-10-2006 12:45 AM SuperNintendo Chalmers has replied

  
Matt P
Member (Idle past 4803 days)
Posts: 106
From: Tampa FL
Joined: 03-18-2005


Message 99 of 162 (285001)
02-08-2006 2:18 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by ramoss
02-06-2006 8:31 PM


Just thought you might like to know
Sorry for the bare post, but this email was circulated by some of my peers.
From the NY Times:
A Young Bush Appointee Resigns His Post at NASA
By ANDREW C. REVKIN
George C. Deutsch, the young presidential appointee at NASA who told
public affairs workers to limit reporters' access to a top climate
scientist and told a Web designer to add the word "theory" at every
mention of the Big Bang, resigned yesterday, agency officials said.
Mr. Deutsch's resignation came on the same day that officials at Texas
A&M University confirmed that he did not graduate from there, as his
résumé on file at the agency asserted.
Officials at NASA headquarters declined to discuss the reason for the
resignation.
"Under NASA policy, it is inappropriate to discuss personnel matters,"
said Dean Acosta, the deputy assistant administrator for public affairs
and Mr. Deutsch's boss.
The resignation came as the National Aeronautics and Space
Administration was preparing to review its policies for communicating
science to the public. The review was ordered Friday by Michael D.
Griffin, the NASA administrator, after a week in which many agency
scientists and midlevel public affairs officials described to The New
York Times instances in which they said political pressure was applied
to limit or flavor discussions of topics uncomfortable to the Bush
administration, particularly global warming.
"As we have stated in the past, NASA is in the process of revising our
public affairs policies across the agency to ensure our commitment to
open and full communications," the statement from Mr. Acosta said.
The statement said the resignation of Mr. Deutsch was "a separate
matter."
Mr. Deutsch, 24, was offered a job as a writer and editor in NASA's
public affairs office in Washington last year after working on
President Bush's re-election campaign and inaugural committee,
according to his résumé. No one has disputed those parts of the
document.
According to his résumé, Mr. Deutsch received a "Bachelor of Arts in
journalism, Class of 2003."
Yesterday, officials at Texas A&M said that was not the case.
"George Carlton Deutsch III did attend Texas A&M University but has not
completed the requirements for a degree," said an e-mail message from
Rita Presley, assistant to the registrar at the university, responding
to a query from The Times.
Repeated calls and e-mail messages to Mr. Deutsch on Tuesday were not
answered.
Mr. Deutsch's educational record was first challenged on Monday by Nick
Anthis, who graduated from Texas A&M last year with a biochemistry
degree and has been writing a Web log on science policy,
scientificactivist.blogspot.com.
After Mr. Anthis read about the problems at NASA, he said in an
interview: "It seemed like political figures had really overstepped the
line. I was just going to write some commentary on this when somebody
tipped me off that George Deutsch might not have graduated."
He posted a blog entry asserting this after he checked with the
university's association of former students. He reported that the
association said Mr. Deutsch received no degree.
A copy of Mr. Deutsch's résumé was provided to The Times by someone
working in NASA headquarters who, along with many other NASA employees,
said Mr. Deutsch played a small but significant role in an intensifying
effort at the agency to exert political control over the flow of
information to the public.
Such complaints came to the fore starting in late January, when James
E. Hansen, the climate scientist, and several midlevel public affairs
officers told The Times that political appointees, including Mr.
Deutsch, were pressing to limit Dr. Hansen's speaking and interviews on
the threats posed by global warming.
Yesterday, Dr. Hansen said that the questions about Mr. Deutsch's
credentials were important, but were a distraction from the broader
issue of political control of scientific information.
"He's only a bit player," Dr. Hansen said of Mr. Deutsch. " The problem
is much broader and much deeper and it goes across agencies. That's
what I'm really concerned about."
"On climate, the public has been misinformed and not informed," he
said. "The foundation of a democracy is an informed public, which
obviously means an honestly informed public. That's the big issue
here."
So he was inappropriate for the job for a second reason: dishonesty.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by ramoss, posted 02-06-2006 8:31 PM ramoss has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 100 of 162 (285075)
02-08-2006 7:25 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by jar
10-08-2004 11:26 AM


Try The Shoe On The Other Foot
jar writes:
While there is a definite seperation of Church and State, should ANYONE that believes in the literal Creation story as laid out in Genesis be allowed to hold a position of authority and influence such a US President or Prime Minister of England?
Although this should not be seen as a religious test, is it a valid test of the person's capability to assimilate data, form rational conclusions, accept new information, and formulate policy?
I likely speak for many when I say that Biblical IDists are at least equally as rational as anyone who thinks all of the energy of the entire universe, i.e. the entire universe, once occupied a submicroscopic area of space billions of times smaller than the proton of an atom as Rich Gore of the National Geographic claimed.

Gravity is God's glue that holds his universe together.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by jar, posted 10-08-2004 11:26 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by jar, posted 02-08-2006 7:32 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 102 by SuperNintendo Chalmers, posted 02-09-2006 8:05 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 422 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 101 of 162 (285076)
02-08-2006 7:32 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by Buzsaw
02-08-2006 7:25 PM


Re: Try The Shoe On The Other Foot
Yes, you can say that. However there is one really big difference.
To believe in the BB we have evidence. To believe in a Young Earth we must willfully deny the evidence.
One is a belief based on evidence, the other is a belief in spite of the evidence.
Thanks for bringing up the difference, it's a classic example of why anyone who believes in a Young Earth should not be allowed into a position of power.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by Buzsaw, posted 02-08-2006 7:25 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by Buzsaw, posted 02-09-2006 11:56 PM jar has not replied
 Message 105 by randman, posted 02-10-2006 12:43 AM jar has not replied

  
SuperNintendo Chalmers
Member (Idle past 5862 days)
Posts: 772
From: Bartlett, IL, USA
Joined: 12-27-2005


Message 102 of 162 (285331)
02-09-2006 8:05 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by Buzsaw
02-08-2006 7:25 PM


I don't think that's right
I likely speak for many when I say that Biblical IDists are at least equally as rational as anyone who thinks all of the energy of the entire universe, i.e. the entire universe, once occupied a submicroscopic area of space billions of times smaller than the proton of an atom as Rich Gore of the National Geographic claimed.
I believe that all of space-time has been expanding. Which would mean that the concept of "size" doesn't really apply. We can say the universe is expanding or contracting but have no way to judge it's size. You can not judge the size of something that has no frame of reference.
It's like saying Infinity < Infinity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by Buzsaw, posted 02-08-2006 7:25 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 103 of 162 (285374)
02-09-2006 11:56 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by jar
02-08-2006 7:32 PM


Re: Try The Shoe On The Other Foot
jar writes:
To believe in the BB we have evidence. To believe in a Young Earth we must willfully deny the evidence.
I've never argued for a young earth and I don't know how GWB believes on that, but as for folks who do, many don't give serious thought or concern to origins. They may have an opinion on it, but may not care enough to think and study it out, not considering it an important enough issue to do so. That doesn't mean they may not be very intelligent, efficient, upright and wise statesmen, such as heads of state, doctors, theologians, chemists or whatever. After all, what bearing does the age of the earth have to do with managing a nation or other positions involving authority?

Gravity is God's glue that holds his universe together.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by jar, posted 02-08-2006 7:32 PM jar has not replied

  
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4927 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 104 of 162 (285383)
02-10-2006 12:41 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by SuperNintendo Chalmers
02-08-2006 12:17 PM


Re: Misconceptions
actually, the Soviets were atheists....they believed in science though and so explored areas of reality, like ESP, that some in the West have chosen to despise, but they were still an officially and very serious atheist regime.
The fact they advocated worship of the State as you put it may make them "religious" just as I might add an atheist evolutionist can be very religious in his devotion to evolution, secularism and atheism, but all that shows is that atheism can be it's own religion. The Soviets definitelty despised belief in God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by SuperNintendo Chalmers, posted 02-08-2006 12:17 PM SuperNintendo Chalmers has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by SuperNintendo Chalmers, posted 02-10-2006 2:02 AM randman has replied
 Message 113 by crashfrog, posted 02-10-2006 9:51 AM randman has replied

  
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4927 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 105 of 162 (285384)
02-10-2006 12:43 AM
Reply to: Message 101 by jar
02-08-2006 7:32 PM


Re: Try The Shoe On The Other Foot
If you ask me, many evos have been willfully denying the evidence for 100 years passing off false claims as factual, denying the basic character of the fossil record, etc...
Maybe people who believe in ToE and abiogenesis should not be allowed to hold office, eh?
I certainly don't want the kind of self-righteousness you exhibit jar in the people that hold office.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by jar, posted 02-08-2006 7:32 PM jar has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024