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Author Topic:   The Barbarity of Christianity (as compared to Islam)
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4899 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 6 of 299 (285571)
02-10-2006 1:15 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by jar
02-10-2006 12:59 PM


Re: setting the record straight
Jar, what you point to are practices of Christianity that did not exist for the first several centuries and don't exist now either. Historically, we all know that early Christianity mutated with Roman Empire as the empire decided to adopt Christianity but with conditions rather than keep trying to stamp it out. So the Roman Empire and those believers inclined towards certain beliefs changed Christianity, and from that stemmed all the persecutions you refer to.
But as reading and understanding the Bible became more prevalent again, the views justifying violence began to fade and Christianity began to return to it's original doctrines leaving the Catholic (and early Protestant) aberrations aside.
Islam, on the other hand, started and spread through violence, and it's more peaceful and tolerant periods are more of the aberration, and can be explained not as real tolerance, but as part of their intolerance. For example, Muslims wanted the Jews because they felt usury and thus banking was inappropiate for a Muslim. So yea, they welcomed the Jews, but not as equals.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by jar, posted 02-10-2006 12:59 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Omnivorous, posted 02-10-2006 1:30 PM randman has not replied
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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4899 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 9 of 299 (285627)
02-10-2006 2:13 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by jar
02-10-2006 1:42 PM


Re: setting the record straight
We don't have much information about the first few centuries of Christianity, so there is little we can say with authority about that period.
A weasel statement...we have plenty of evidence actually. Moreover, historically you are just plain wrong to assert that Christianity has been the most violent and oppressive force on earth.
Let me ask you this. Do you believe that Jesus commanded violence and oppression? Is Jesus the originator of an evil force on earth, in your opinion?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by jar, posted 02-10-2006 1:42 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by crashfrog, posted 02-10-2006 2:14 PM randman has replied
 Message 12 by jar, posted 02-10-2006 2:17 PM randman has replied

randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4899 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 11 of 299 (285631)
02-10-2006 2:16 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by crashfrog
02-10-2006 2:14 PM


Re: setting the record straight
A spiritual sword, not a natural one.

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4899 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 13 of 299 (285639)
02-10-2006 2:25 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by jar
02-10-2006 2:17 PM


Re: Jesus vs Christianity?
Uh, how do you know what is Christ-like? You discount the early church, the gospels as authoritative, etc,...
So why do you think you know what Christ was like, jar?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by jar, posted 02-10-2006 2:17 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by jar, posted 02-10-2006 2:54 PM randman has replied

randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4899 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 15 of 299 (285654)
02-10-2006 3:02 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by jar
02-10-2006 2:54 PM


Re: What is Christ-like?
You going to answer or not, jar?
I don't discount the things you do, and so it is consistent with my beliefs to say what is Christ-like, but you, on the other hand, have no real basis, do you, for knowing what is Christ-like?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by jar, posted 02-10-2006 2:54 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by jar, posted 02-10-2006 3:05 PM randman has replied

randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4899 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 17 of 299 (285660)
02-10-2006 3:13 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by jar
02-10-2006 3:05 PM


Re: What is Christ-like?
No, but my point jar is you say you are a Christian but then claim Christianity is a force for evil. Are you then a force for evil?
How do you know your ideas of Christ-likeness are correct?
And if you are asserting that Christ's real teachings are not a force for evil in the world, then shouldn't you qualify your claims that Christianity is the greatest force of evil in the world, and say that false Christianity is?
The way you put it, being a Christian means that you are part of a great, evil force, and Jesus is not part of Christianity because Christianity is evil and unChristlike, right?
This message has been edited by randman, 02-10-2006 03:13 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by jar, posted 02-10-2006 3:05 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by jar, posted 02-10-2006 3:24 PM randman has replied
 Message 85 by nator, posted 07-23-2006 5:19 PM randman has replied

randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4899 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 19 of 299 (285675)
02-10-2006 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by jar
02-10-2006 3:24 PM


Re: What is Christ-like?
But jar, you yourself admit that true Christianity, which you call Christ-likeness, is not the same as oppression.
So why do you mischaracterize all of Christianity as one thing when in reality, there have been and are different versions of it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by jar, posted 02-10-2006 3:24 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4899 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 93 of 299 (334838)
07-24-2006 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by nator
07-23-2006 5:19 PM


Re: What is Christ-like?
But Shraf, you are not a member of the government. Jar is saying that the belief system and religion called Christianity is evil, but then says he is a Christian. So my question is whether he is evil since he is a Christian.
I think the relevant point is that jar wants to have it both ways. He wants to be able to say Christianity is evil, but he also wants to say he is good and a Christian. In other words, he wants the Christian label for whatever reason, but in all fairness, he really does not consider himself to be a member of what he rightly considers what is commonly known as "Christianity" because if he did, he would say some forms of Christianity are evil. By saying "Christianity" is evil, he assumes that there is a commonly known thing called "Christianity" and by his logic suggests he is not part of that but is rather in some minority viewpoint he calls Christianity (let's say Christianity-jar) but is not "the Christianity" he derides as evil.

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 Message 94 by jar, posted 07-24-2006 1:05 PM randman has replied

randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4899 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 95 of 299 (334855)
07-24-2006 1:09 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by jar
07-24-2006 1:05 PM


Re: misrepresenting me again randman
I am responding to Shraf on threads and points made awhile back. if you feel you have been misrepresented, please clarify.
In the past, you have not been willing to clarify, usually hiding behind claims of being off-topic or other means of avoiding clarity. So we have to go by what you have posted.
My recollection is you claimed Christianity is evil, period, not historically that Christians have committed evil. I understand the Christianity you consider (or so I thought) to be evil is not the form of Christianity you yourself hold to, but that doesn't change the claim.
Are you saying Christianity is not evil, but that merely many Christians have committed evil in the name of Christianity or exactly what is your claim in this regard?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by jar, posted 07-24-2006 1:05 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by jar, posted 07-24-2006 1:12 PM randman has replied
 Message 98 by AdminPhat, posted 07-24-2006 1:19 PM randman has replied
 Message 130 by Faith, posted 07-24-2006 4:57 PM randman has replied

randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4899 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 97 of 299 (334859)
07-24-2006 1:17 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by jar
07-24-2006 1:12 PM


Re: misrepresenting me again randman
Read the first page of this thread and many other comments on other threads, jar, and you can see where you continually make comments like this:
This thread is not about whether or not some other religion sucks, it's about Christianity, and historically, Christianity has been about the most violent, intolerant force on earth.
When pointed out that nothing in Jesus' teachings suggest violence as a means of promoting his teachings is something Jesus sanctions and that early Christianity never held onto to such beliefs, but persecutions only came in with Constantine, you waffled, as usual, erroneously claiming we know practically nothing of early Christianity, that it was a minor sect.
I believe you know your comments are wrong or that you should know, as the many threads discussing early Christianity have been evident, and the cause for the Empire seeking to make peace with Christianity had a lot to do with the fact it had become so prevalent, but maybe you have forgotten these things?
Whatever the case may be, your arguments are clear. In the past and present, you argue Christianity is perhaps the greatest force of evil on the planet earth.
My questions to you still remain unanswered by the way. So you have little reason to demand I answer you?
Why won't you answer the questions raised earlier?
For example, did Jesus teach such violence?
How do you know who Jesus is and what is Christ-like if you think the scriptural presentations of Christ are doctored and false?
Are you evil too since you claim to be a Christian and so promote Christianity as something presumably good?
Edited by randman, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by jar, posted 07-24-2006 1:12 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by jar, posted 07-24-2006 1:20 PM randman has replied

randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4899 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 100 of 299 (334868)
07-24-2006 1:31 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by AdminPhat
07-24-2006 1:19 PM


jar is misrepresenting imo
Jar is pretending he isn't dodging the issue. Here is some of the exchange from the first page.
my comment
Jar, what you point to are practices of Christianity that did not exist for the first several centuries and don't exist now either. Historically, we all know that early Christianity mutated with Roman Empire as the empire decided to adopt Christianity but with conditions rather than keep trying to stamp it out. So the Roman Empire and those believers inclined towards certain beliefs changed Christianity, and from that stemmed all the persecutions you refer to.
But as reading and understanding the Bible became more prevalent again, the views justifying violence began to fade and Christianity began to return to it's original doctrines leaving the Catholic (and early Protestant) aberrations aside..../
jar responds
We don't have much information about the first few centuries of Christianity, so there is little we can say with authority about that period. In addition, until it was adopted as the official religion of the State by Constantine, it was but another of the minor religious sects out there and so pretty much incapable of oppressing anyone.
As to the second part of your statemnt, whether it exists today, I also demonstrated that the practices of intolerance continue today. The late troubles in Ireland, Faith's very own words and examples like the attempts to oppress segments of the American population that continue today support my contention.
The rest of your post relating to Islamic practices are pointless and off topic anyway. This thread is not about whether or not some other religion sucks, it's about Christianity, and historically, Christianity has been about the most violent, intolerant force on earth.
my comment
A weasel statement...we have plenty of evidence actually. Moreover, historically you are just plain wrong to assert that Christianity has been the most violent and oppressive force on earth.
Let me ask you this. Do you believe that Jesus commanded violence and oppression? Is Jesus the originator of an evil force on earth, in your opinion?
jar responds
Not at all. Of course, he was not a Christian, but rather a nice Jewish boy.
The Map is not the Territory randman. The question is whether or not Christianity as it has been practiced down through the ages is at all Christ-like. And sadly, history and compemporary life, say that the answer is a resounding "No!"
my comment
Uh, how do you know what is Christ-like? You discount the early church, the gospels as authoritative, etc,...
So why do you think you know what Christ was like, jar?
jar's response (note a total evasion of the question and line of reasoning, as usual imo)
Is burning someone at the stake Christ-like?
my retort
You going to answer or not, jar?
I don't discount the things you do, and so it is consistent with my beliefs to say what is Christ-like, but you, on the other hand, have no real basis, do you, for knowing what is Christ-like?
jar evades again
think I know what being Christ-like is because I am a Christian.
Now answer this.
Is burning someone at the stake Christ-like?
I respond:
No, but my point jar is you say you are a Christian but then claim Christianity is a force for evil. Are you then a force for evil?
How do you know your ideas of Christ-likeness are correct?
And if you are asserting that Christ's real teachings are not a force for evil in the world, then shouldn't you qualify your claims that Christianity is the greatest force of evil in the world, and say that false Christianity is?
The way you put it, being a Christian means that you are part of a great, evil force, and Jesus is not part of Christianity because Christianity is evil and unChristlike, right?
Jar's comment, best comment yet, and not being as evasive. (Note the comment that the bad Christians are the real Christians, suggesting to me he considers Christianity itself to be wrong or evil)
No, but my point jar is you say you are a Christian but then claim Christianity is a force for evil. Are you then a force for evil?
No, I am not Christianity. I am but one Christian, and I am trying to reform the religion.
And if you are asserting that Christ's real teachings are not a force for evil in the world, then shouldn't you qualify your claims that Christianity is the greatest force of evil in the world, and say that false Christianity is?
No, not at all. Christiantity is not Christ. It is not false Christianity that is evil, but Christianity as being practiced by many Christians. For example, the current attempt to oppress many Americans as found in the Defence of Marriage Act is an example of Christian Intolerance. The quote from Faith is an example of Christian Intolerance.
These beople are not False Christians, I imagine they believe they are the true Christians. That is the problem.
Until we, as Christians recognize the bad that Christianity does, we cannot fix it.
The way you put it, being a Christian means that you are part of a great, evil force, and Jesus is not part of Christianity because Christianity is evil and unChristlike, right?
Jesus is not part of Christianity. The Map is not the Territory. Religion is a creation of humans. Jesus is the Territory. Christianity is but the Map.
Until we, as Christians, recognize those things we do that are not Christ-like, where we are being intolerant and oppressive, we cannot change Christianity.
my response
But jar, you yourself admit that true Christianity, which you call Christ-likeness, is not the same as oppression.
So why do you mischaracterize all of Christianity as one thing when in reality, there have been and are different versions of it?
jar concludes with 2 points
No, I do not say that true Christianity is Christ-like. I do not split Christianity into subgroups. There is only Christianity.
What I say is that Christianity should be Christ-like.
The relevant point, imo, is the comment that Christianity should not be considered in subgroups, but as a whole, and so my point is that jar claims that Christianity is evil, both in the past and present, as this thread shows.
I tried to raise some issues on how to know what is "Christ-like" so there could be some logical understanding here. For example, the Pope probably says the papacy is Christ-like and always has been. I disagree, of course, and so does jar, but my point is that actually reading the gospels gives us a picture, a historical account of who Jesus is, and as people read the gospels in their own language, they tended over time to drop the Catholic heresy of persecution.
So true Christianity, meaning Christianity in accord with the teachings and person of Christ, is not, nor ever has been a force for evil, as jar claims, and moreover, it is somewhat silly to say Christianity has no subgroups when in reality the main people killed by RC persecutions were Christian subgroups.
Edited by randman, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by AdminPhat, posted 07-24-2006 1:19 PM AdminPhat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by AdminPhat, posted 07-24-2006 1:39 PM randman has replied
 Message 102 by jar, posted 07-24-2006 1:41 PM randman has replied

randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4899 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 103 of 299 (334871)
07-24-2006 1:42 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by jar
07-24-2006 1:20 PM


Re: A demand that randman provide quotes where I said Christianity is evil.
I provided a lengthy qu0tation of our exchange where you did indeed say that Christianity is evil, both in the past and present.
Now, as far as board moderators, I personally think your behaviour here warrants a suspension for suggesting dishonesty and lying on my part when it is clear that you did, in fact, say Christianity is a force for evil but insinuate you did not and that I was lying.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by jar, posted 07-24-2006 1:20 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by CK, posted 07-24-2006 1:43 PM randman has replied
 Message 107 by jar, posted 07-24-2006 1:50 PM randman has not replied

randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4899 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 105 of 299 (334873)
07-24-2006 1:44 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by AdminPhat
07-24-2006 1:39 PM


Re: jar is misrepresenting imo
It's deeply offensive to me to see jar get away with snidely suggesting I am or have been evasive of deceptive on this thread when I think our exchange shows I brought up legitimate issues, which were largely ignored, and that jar here has the gall to suggest I am being deceptive and evasive.
I apologize for stating this on this thread, but honestly, I'd like to see jar at least somewhat reminded he is suppossed to respond and substantiate his points as well.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by AdminPhat, posted 07-24-2006 1:39 PM AdminPhat has not replied

randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4899 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 106 of 299 (334874)
07-24-2006 1:46 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by CK
07-24-2006 1:43 PM


you can't or won't read the thread?
We don't have much information about the first few centuries of Christianity, so there is little we can say with authority about that period. In addition, until it was adopted as the official religion of the State by Constantine, it was but another of the minor religious sects out there and so pretty much incapable of oppressing anyone.
As to the second part of your statemnt, whether it exists today, I also demonstrated that the practices of intolerance continue today. The late troubles in Ireland, Faith's very own words and examples like the attempts to oppress segments of the American population that continue today support my contention.
The rest of your post relating to Islamic practices are pointless and off topic anyway. This thread is not about whether or not some other religion sucks, it's about Christianity, and historically, Christianity has been about the most violent, intolerant force on earth.
How much clearer do you need this to be?
Jar's "contention" is that Christianity is evil, both in the past and today. Now, he may now be backtracking....who knows, but this WAS his argument.
Edited by randman, : No reason given.

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4899 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 108 of 299 (334877)
07-24-2006 1:51 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by jar
07-24-2006 1:41 PM


what the heck?
I suppose you can get away with suggesting others are lying. I am not surprised, but to answer you jar.
You said:
Christianity has been about the most violent, intolerant force on earth.
You make it plain that Christianity, in your opinion, is still oppresive today, right?
You have said this on other threads, right?
You claimed Christianity cannot be split up into subgroups, right?
What's your beef?
It IS YOUR CLAIM that Christianity is evil, not mine. There is no misrepresentation of you here.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by jar, posted 07-24-2006 1:41 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
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