Karl Rove: Traitor?

Good evening, folks. No better time to make my debut, I suppose.My understanding is that White House officials (or anyone else)have no legal onus to preserve intra-staff communcations unless there is official notice of an investigation.Nixon could have perfectly legally destroyed his tapes at any time prior to the Congressional subpoena to produce them, thus the perennial puzzlement over why he did not.If Gonzales gave an informal heads-up prior to official notification, he may have become part of a conspiracy to obstruct justice.

berberry writes:

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yes, you're exactly right.

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I've been lurking long enough to know I won't hear that very often!Thank you for the welcome. It is a pleasure to find such a ferociously intelligent forum.

arachnopilia writes:

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well, make this two times: you're exactly right. however, this next bit could use some editting to adequately reflect the current debates:

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It is a pleasure to find such a ferociously intelligent forum.

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You're exactly wry.

berbery writes:

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No wonder right-wing liars need so desperately to discredit this guy. But he's not the only one; they've certainly got their smear work cut out for them, eh?

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As the CM Trio sang about the John Birch Society, "Help us fill the ranks/To get this movement started/We need lots of tools and cranks..."So on a day distinguished by reports that Fitzgerald has also questioned Bush administration officials about efforts to shift blame for those infamous yellow cake assertions, Fox News reports that Varlerie Plame "dontated to an anti-Bush" organization...as Valerie P. Wilson! (emphasis added)In the report we learn she bought two tickets to a fund-raising Springsteen concert. To our even greater horror, we are informed that on the donation form she listed her occupation as "Retired" (wrly, perhaps?), and wrote in "N.A." for employer: we even have a solemn quote about how one shouldn't falsify such forms...guess she should have written "CIA Operative, Nonofficial Cover."I mean, how can you believe anything her husband says once you know about the stygian ethical darkness his wife embraces?I'm still searching for the equally breathless Fox coverage of Fitzgerald's widening investigation.This message has been edited by Omnivorous, 07-27-2005 03:28 PMThis message has been edited by Omnivorous, 07-27-2005 03:30 PM

I don't think the presence or lack of a declared war is necessary to a charge of treason, though historically we have been more gallows happy during wartime.Guess I should have threaded this reply to Tal, since I feel a brief rant coming on...Nixon wasted thousands of lives in a folly-driven war he didn't start but opened the door to China; on social issues he would be considered a liberal by today's right-skewed political spectrum.Bush started the folly of a counterproductive war under false pretenses and has wasted thousands of lives; he has no redeeming virtues that I can detect.Compare and contrast? Nixon was sleazy and smart. Bush is sleazy and stupid.As we approach the mid-point of his second term (here goes a political prediction), watch how Bush maneuvers to keep his presidential records and fingerprints away from historians, yea, even unto the fourth generation.History will not be kind to this little man.

jar writes:

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Re: not treason, though

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As we approach the mid-point of his second term (here goes a political prediction), watch how Bush maneuvers to keep his presidential records and fingerprints away from historians, yea, even unto the fourth generation.

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Kinda like daddy had Reagan do for him?

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Exactly.Many contemporary observers are puzzled about apparently trivial documents classified as Secret by the Bush administration: e.g., documents pried from their fingers via the FOIA have passages blacked out that are already in the public record, documents already on .gov web sites are withheld, etc.I suspect the vast forest of spurious secrets helps to conceal the trees they most desperately want to hide. Of course, the Bushies have been hiding so much so long, part of the process is just habit.Gov. Bush's records get spirited off; documents disappear from his military service file. If you think Hillary's billing records proved elusive, just watch the next couple of years at the White House and the Depts. of Justice and Defense, esp. if the polls show a likely Democrat victory in 2008.

Oops...nothing makes me over-earnest faster than Bush: as a vet, I find his posturing on war and patriotism especially disgusting.Sorry 'bout that.

dietrologiaWhat a lovely word!I found this:from "What Really Happened": ABE: It appeals to my Sicilian fraction.This message has been edited by Omnivorous, 11-03-2005 11:47 AM

A number of us have suspected Cheney's hand in this affair from the beginning. Perhaps there is nothing like prosecution to focus a man's mind on the truth. See full LA Times report here.]This message has been edited by Omnivorous, 02-10-2006 02:19 PM

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Well, Rand, that has been a GOP talking point since the early days, one that has been thoroughly refuted by the simple fact of her status at the Company. I am relieved to know the VP has the authority to waive national security laws when WH political fortunes are at stake. It makes me feel so...safe.As to no other crimes being committed...Richardson? Did you mean Fitzgerald? Fitzgerald merely said he would only use this particular material as narrative context for his prosecution of Scooter, not that no other crimes had been committed.Prosecutors and grand juries determine whether indictments are warranted. Pretrial procedures often reveal additional information that results in new indictments (witness the nervously turned GOP heads in Washington when Scanlon turned on Abramoff), esp. when those under present indictment begin to absorb the reality of criminal proceedings and start cutting deals with the prosecution.I understand a grand jury is still impanelled. I wonder why that is?

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Interesting logic, Tal.You surely don't believe that all crimes turn up in indictments?Prosecutors are strategists; they often will not complicate a strong case on one charge with difficult to prove charges. The presence of a charge in the indictment is suggestive of a crime having been committed, though not proof, as you point out; but the absence of a charge in the indictment does not prove that a crime was not committed, or even that the prosecutor does not believe a crime was committed.Also, if we give the assertions of Libby's defense team any credence, those responsible for the leak are only now being identified.The grand jury is still impaneled. The door is still open.

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True: the only citizens not considered innocent until proven guilty in the U.S. are the ones ordered locked up indefinitely by Bush without recourse to habeas corpus, lawyers, or courts.Still, my bad, Tal--I was ambiguous in my reference: my comment on your "interesting logic" was aimed at your assertion that if no charges were brought, then no crime was committed. I agree that innocent until proven guilty is a fine standard. I look forward to the trial(s). Previously, we had a far murkier situation, with the VP CoS claiming that any release of classified material was inadvertent and involved info everyone in Washington already knew (i.e., Valerie Plame's employment at the CIA), and claiming that it was done only to clarify the lack of relationship between Cheney and Wilson. Remember that spin? How many spins ago that was!Now, for the first time, we have made public a statement by that same VP chief of staff claiming that his "superiors authorized" him to divulge classified information for political purposes. I don't know about you, but when my superiors "authorized" something, they wanted it done, and the VP does not have the authority to declassify intelligence information.I agree that a man whose fingerprints are found at a murder scene is innocent until proven guilty, but I wouldn't want my grand-daughter to date him before the trial .My fingers aren't crossed--I'll leave that to the WH when they issue their dodge 'em statements. But my suspicions are strengthened, as my OP and its title make clear.We'll see what Fitzgerald and the grand jury make of this, but a majority of the American people have already concluded that the Bush administration is not an honest one, as reflected by his low ratings in opinion polls on the issue.This message has been edited by Omnivorous, 02-13-2006 04:21 PM

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As you can imagine, Rand, I agree with almost none of what you had to say. But we've been over all that before.So I am content to note that a growing majority of the American people feel, as I do, that Bush is dishonest and untrustworthy.Several years ago my conservative friends (yes, I have some) jeered at my prediction that this one wasn't gonna go away. They're not jeering now--they're figuring out how to distance other Republican candidates from Bush later this year.As to the Republican dream that Libby will be the only indictment that comes out of this perversion of executive responsibility...Dream on. We'll see.

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I understand your confusion, Tal--there have been so many!But I was referring to the one under discussion in this thread.This message has been edited by Omnivorous, 02-16-2006 04:04 PM

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Nice try, Tal, but I'm not going to play 20 questions with you.We've been over this ground. My opinion about what charges have been brought and why--and what charges may yet be brought--are on record in this thread.If you have some new info or insight to offer, please do, and I will respond.

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