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Author Topic:   Another Test for Intelligent Design Proponents
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 136 of 151 (285518)
02-10-2006 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by inkorrekt
02-08-2006 2:48 PM


Re: explanation
It is more complex than what you think. Unless you are a chemist, it is hard to understand why it cannot happen.
ROFL! I'm a chemist - PhD Ohio State 1979. It' very hard indeed to "understand why it cannot happen" when it actually has been shown to be able to happen. You've been lied to, Inkorrekt.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by inkorrekt, posted 02-08-2006 2:48 PM inkorrekt has replied

Replies to this message:
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AdminWounded
Inactive Member


Message 137 of 151 (285535)
02-10-2006 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by inkorrekt
02-09-2006 9:58 PM


New topic for chirality discussion
Could the discussion relating to chirality please be moved to the new 'The Recurrent Problem of Chirality' thread.
Many thanks,
AW

This message is a reply to:
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inkorrekt
Member (Idle past 6081 days)
Posts: 382
From: Westminster,CO, USA
Joined: 02-04-2006


Message 138 of 151 (285867)
02-11-2006 5:41 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by Parasomnium
01-03-2006 5:06 PM


Re: Is this intelligent design too?
Thanks for posting these examples. ALL of them raise a big question. How could they be in existence without a designer?
Dogs are more affectionate to us than people towards other people. How do we explain love? What kind of love is this? Is it because 2 people evolved and they felt lonely and there was a need for love and there came love from nowhere!!!!!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Parasomnium, posted 01-03-2006 5:06 PM Parasomnium has replied

Replies to this message:
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inkorrekt
Member (Idle past 6081 days)
Posts: 382
From: Westminster,CO, USA
Joined: 02-04-2006


Message 139 of 151 (285871)
02-11-2006 6:05 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by Parasomnium
02-09-2006 5:18 AM


Re: An incorrect chemist?
I have performed many synthetic reactions. Not all of them worked. But, only a few.I may be INKORREKT. But, in my little mind, it is extremely hard for to imagine how, many reactions that cannot occur in a test tube can occur in nature.
Yes, you are right about the computer. Yes, in your computer, though your RAM chip(random memory) failed it still ran because it still had the Static memory on the board. I think this is where your basic BIOS works. Well, what I meant was for the computer to work, the microprocessors, the chip set, the time clock, associated electronic components all must be in place. You can have the CPU. But, if the chip set fails, nothing will happen.I used this only as an example. What is important here is not the mechanics, but the structural design and architecture that are necessary for the desired function.
About amino acids, you can have poly amino acid made up of only one amino acid. For example Poly glycine. I do not know what its biogical acitivity will be. You need not have all the 20 amino acids to form a protein. For a protien to be functional, there has to be the proper sequence of the specific types of amino acids with specific interactive bonds. In the case of Insulin there are 2 disulfide bonds at specific sites. So, a polypetide(single or few amino acids) as long as Insulim molecule will not have any biological acitivity of tht of Insulin. For that poly peptide to have activity similar to Insulin, this has to have all the neccesary amino acids in proper sequence. I have never heard of any self assembled protein having any biological activity. Today, we have chemical synthesizers which can create taylor made molecules.For example, we have DNA synthesizers. The design of this machine even required an Intelligent person.

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inkorrekt
Member (Idle past 6081 days)
Posts: 382
From: Westminster,CO, USA
Joined: 02-04-2006


Message 140 of 151 (285874)
02-11-2006 6:15 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by nator
01-08-2006 4:45 PM


Ph.D,Science and Salaries.
There is a Professor by name Ward Churchil who makes 120,000/ year out of my taxes.He is not a Scientist. All he does is to attack America and Praise Saddam hussein. He says those 3000 men and women who died on 911 are little Eichmans.He does not have a Ph.D. He was the chairman of the school of ethnic studies. Is this not wonderful america!!!!! His wife also makes another 90,000. Do you want name, awards, and money? Start attacking America. You will be given the Nobel Prize like Jimmy Carter, Arafat, Kofi annan etc.
This message has been edited by inkorrekt, 02-11-2006 06:16 PM
This message has been edited by AdminJar, 02-11-2006 05:21 PM

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inkorrekt
Member (Idle past 6081 days)
Posts: 382
From: Westminster,CO, USA
Joined: 02-04-2006


Message 141 of 151 (285875)
02-11-2006 6:25 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by crashfrog
02-07-2006 9:55 PM


Re: explanation
This is hard for me to imagine. That random choice and mutations can produce everything. What is the connection between random choice and mutations? Can they not occur independently?
For the puzzles to be put in place, an external force is necessary. This is the point of discussion. This has nothing to do with mutations.
On the fruit fly, my friends were only trying to find if any Microevolution occured even after millions of mutations. It never happened.

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inkorrekt
Member (Idle past 6081 days)
Posts: 382
From: Westminster,CO, USA
Joined: 02-04-2006


Message 142 of 151 (285877)
02-11-2006 6:29 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by Chiroptera
02-07-2006 10:10 PM


Re: explanation
Speaking of looking things up, have you read up on the Urey/Miller experiments yet? You seem to have a habit of making serious errors of fact without acknowledging your mistakes.
Can you show me what were my mistakes? Urey Miller experiment was the classical one carried out if there will be any a biogenesis from the basic elements. This is how it is being reported. To me, they were trying to synthsize life and it never happened.
If life is so simple as everyone talks about, why is it that no one has ever synthesized life yet?

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Replies to this message:
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Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 143 of 151 (285885)
02-11-2006 6:40 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by inkorrekt
02-11-2006 6:29 PM


Re: explanation
I guess I will have to repeat myself.
The intention of the Urey/Miller experiments were NOT to produce life in the laboratory. I am going to say it again: the point of the Urey/Miller experiments were NOT to produce life. The purpose of the Urey/Miller experiments were to test the idea that relatively complex organic molecules associated with life, like amino acids, could be produced without life in conditions roughly simulating the primordial earth. That is your first error.
Your second error was stating that only the amino acid glycine was produced. In fact, among the organic materials produced, at least thirteen different amino acids were produced.
Your third error was stating that this experiment was never repeated. In fact, many people not only repeated this exact experiment, but repeated similar experiments mimicking various different conditions for the primordial earth, and in every case complex organic material was produced.
Here is a link to the Urey/Miller experiments.
Your fourth mistake, as Wounded King pointed out, was stating that glycine comes in L- and D-forms. In fact, glycine does not exhibit chirality.
Just so other people know what we are discussing, this is the original post with the errors.

"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

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Kapyong
Member (Idle past 3442 days)
Posts: 344
Joined: 05-22-2003


Message 144 of 151 (285917)
02-11-2006 10:47 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by inkorrekt
02-11-2006 6:25 PM


Re: explanation
Greetings,
quote:
This is hard for me to imagine. That random choice and mutations can produce everything.
  —"inkorrekt"
A common creationists misconception -
you ignore the important other parts :
* NON-random natural selection
* huge lengths of time
Then, by ignoring the non-random parts, you object that "random choice" can produce anything.
quote:
For the puzzles to be put in place, an external force is necessary. This is the point of discussion. This has nothing to do with mutations.
  —"inkorrekt"
There ARE "external forces" - natural selection pressures over enormous lengths of time.
quote:
On the fruit fly, my friends were only trying to find if any Microevolution occured even after millions of mutations. It never happened.
  —"inkorrekt"
Micro-evolution is a vague religious term, coined by creationists.
If you want to be understood, please use correct scientific terms, such as :
* mutation (change in genome)
* evolution (change of allele frequency over time)
* speciation (new species)
* common descent thru modification and natural selection
(all words, and errors are mine)
Every generation of fruit-fly has mutations.
These mutations DO add up to evolution (changing allele frequency.)
Over long times, these DO add up to new species.
We DO and HAVE observed new species many times.
Iasion

This message is a reply to:
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Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 145 of 151 (285946)
02-12-2006 8:05 AM
Reply to: Message 138 by inkorrekt
02-11-2006 5:41 PM


Re: Is this intelligent design too?
Thanks for posting these examples. ALL of them raise a big question. How could they be in existence without a designer?
The point with ID is that the designer is supposed to be intelligent. Very intelligent. The reasoning goes: "It's all so perfect, it functions so well, it must be designed by a superior intellect." ID-ers usually don't say it out loud, but the designer they have in mind is actually the God of Christianity.
The examples I gave show some severly botched up designs, far from perfect and not functioning according to plan. It seems that the intelligent designer may not be that intelligent after all, which casts some doubt on ID-ist ideas.
Dogs are more affectionate to us than people towards other people. How do we explain love? What kind of love is this? Is it because 2 people evolved and they felt lonely and there was a need for love and there came love from nowhere!!!!!
I haven't a clue what this has to do with anything. Could you explain? But before you do, please consider whether it is actually on topic. If you conclude that is isn't, then don't bother.

"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science." - Charles Darwin.
Did you know that most of the time your computer is doing nothing? What if you could make it do something really useful? Like helping scientists understand diseases? Your computer could even be instrumental in finding a cure for HIV/AIDS. Wouldn't that be something? If you agree, then join World Community Grid now and download a simple, free tool that lets you and your computer do your share in helping humanity. After all, you are part of it, so why not take part in it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by inkorrekt, posted 02-11-2006 5:41 PM inkorrekt has not replied

  
inkorrekt
Member (Idle past 6081 days)
Posts: 382
From: Westminster,CO, USA
Joined: 02-04-2006


Message 146 of 151 (286002)
02-12-2006 5:30 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by Coragyps
02-10-2006 12:08 PM


Re: explanation
You know this better. I don ot have to say anything bout this. Since you have brought this up, I have to state this. I have carried out many synthetic reactions. Not all of them worked. Only a few worked. Why? This is because of all the chemical laws. Certain reactions can never occur no matter what you do. If everything is possible, then we will not have an orderly universe. It will only be Chaos.We do not have chaos because of chemical laws regulating all the processes.
Well, I was assigned a project that required ingenuity. I had applied mine. I came up with a theoretical plan. It seemed feasible. But, my boss who was not even a Chemist always discouraged me. It was a serious challenge to me. I took it and pursued my work diligently. Finally I made it to work. I even provided the evidence that it worked. This is regarding surface modification of a polymer. My boss could not believe it. But, he had to believe with the evidence which was over whelming. You will not believe this. After all this, he told me one day that this is exactly what he was planning to do for 10 years. Then the question: If you knew that this would work, then why did you discourage me? Well he tried to kill my project. This is practical reality in Science

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by Coragyps, posted 02-10-2006 12:08 PM Coragyps has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by NosyNed, posted 02-12-2006 9:02 PM inkorrekt has replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 147 of 151 (286042)
02-12-2006 9:02 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by inkorrekt
02-12-2006 5:30 PM


Anecdotes
Since these little stories of yours don't really contribute anything to the discussions may I suggest you stop them.
You should understand that as you keep filling in these little details it is possible for some people to draw conclusions that you don't want drawn. I suggest you just stick with verifiable facts to make any case you want to make.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by inkorrekt, posted 02-12-2006 5:30 PM inkorrekt has replied

Replies to this message:
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inkorrekt
Member (Idle past 6081 days)
Posts: 382
From: Westminster,CO, USA
Joined: 02-04-2006


Message 148 of 151 (292560)
03-05-2006 11:23 PM
Reply to: Message 147 by NosyNed
02-12-2006 9:02 PM


Re: Anecdotes
ROFL! I'm a chemist - PhD Ohio State 1979. It' very hard indeed to "understand why it cannot happen" when it actually has been shown to be able to happen. You've been lied to, Inkorrekt"""""
When a Chemist himself makes a statement, what am I supposed to do?
You are dead wrong. You have not understood either ROFL's message as well as my reply. I will write as much as I can to show that they are wrong. Please do not read my posts if they offend you.

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 Message 147 by NosyNed, posted 02-12-2006 9:02 PM NosyNed has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by AdminNWR, posted 03-05-2006 11:59 PM inkorrekt has replied

  
AdminNWR
Inactive Member


Message 149 of 151 (292567)
03-05-2006 11:59 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by inkorrekt
03-05-2006 11:23 PM


On how to quote
inkorrekt, it will be a lot easier to read your messages if you make it clearer what is quoted text, and what is your own text.
One way to quote is:
[qs]Text to be quoted[/qs]
which will show up as
Text to be quoted
It also helps if you indicate where you are quoting from, particularly if it comes from a message other than the one you are replying to. In this case it came from Message 136 by Coragyps.
Incidently, I used there:
it came from [msg=136] by Coragyps.
For other ideas, use the "peek" button to see how experienced members format their text.
You have not understood either ROFL's message as well as my reply.
I think you didn't understand "ROFL". It is a network abbreviation for "Rolling On the Floor Laughing". It was not the name of the person you were quoting.
I'm just offering some friendly help. You will communicate your message better if you can make it easier for people to follow.
Thanks.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by inkorrekt, posted 03-05-2006 11:23 PM inkorrekt has replied

Replies to this message:
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inkorrekt
Member (Idle past 6081 days)
Posts: 382
From: Westminster,CO, USA
Joined: 02-04-2006


Message 150 of 151 (293092)
03-07-2006 6:22 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by AdminNWR
03-05-2006 11:59 PM


Re: On how to quote
Thanks for the help. This isexactly what I was looking for.

This message is a reply to:
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