HaShem - Yahweh or Jehovah?

Sources please.

Considering the phrenology is basically victorian psuedoscience, I find it very amusing that someone would use that as a piece of evidencehttp://pages.britishlibrary.net/phrenology/overview.htm

Just goes to show the sophistication of his arguments

my father is a world-famous mathematician. why thank you. but they DON'T pronounce the name of god, and it IS something that they do intentionally. they specifically avoid using the name of god in favour of a title for god, "lord." the vowels reflect that replacement.this is like judaism 101. it's not changing the pronounciation -- it's saying a different word entirely. well, not exactly. we have masoretic text, which includes very specific vowels. there's abotu a dozen in hebrew. they might have changed slightly over the years, but we DO have some clues. got documentation for that? a lot of people ho don't know what they're talking about like to say that bible was an oral tradition -- it was not. it's always been written. its original sources were written. i beg to differ. every single consonant is a syllable. that's WHY they didn't use vowels. they didn't need to. that's a double whammy! where does it say the jews had been abolished? and when did they fight rome? do you think you can just cite random bible verses? psalm 2 is david's coronation psalm. isaiah is mostly dealing with the exile in babylon, where god DID punish the jews. but they returned from that more than 2000 years ago.it helps to have read these books, you know. sounds like antisemitic conspiracy theory to me. phrenology is bunk. no, that's a strawman. i'll spell it out again.god's name is YHWH. it was probably pronounced "yahweh" which means "he that is" in hebrew. it is a derivation of the word hayah, meaning i am.the jews believe this name is too holy to be spoken, lest they take the lord's name in vain. so instead of pronouncing his name, they say the word "adonai" which means lord. you are doing the same thing in english whenevr you say "god" or "lord." neither is god's proper name.god's proper name is yahweh, not adonai, not el, not elohim, not god, not lord. but it is acceptable to call him by those TITLES.

---

אָרַח

yeah, really.

---

אָרַח

"Sources please."1) Encyclopaedica Brittanica, 1973, vol. 12., p. 1054.
2) Encyclopaedia Judaica Jerusalem, 1971, vol. 3, p. 50.
3) Encyclopedia Americana, 1986, vol. 16, p. 71.
4) Collier's Encyclopedia, 1977, vol. 13, p. 573.
5) Funk and Wagnall's New Encyclopedia, vol. 14, p. 214.Above quotes in, "Matthew 24 Fulfilled," John L. Bray, 1996,
Lakeland Fl 33804.Happy reading!hoaryhead

Nonsense. The custom of whether or not to call one's father by his given name varies from culture to culture. It has nothing to do with religion or respect for God.

Your evidence?

oral traditions are fluid -- the original sources themselves were probably oral at some point, but the bible was compiled from written sources. had it been a collection of oral sources, we'd likely see more agreement and more unification.there is a tradition that says that the entire tanakh was lost during babylonian exile, and some rabbis a few generations later (ezra?) recited it entirely from memory as scribes wrote it down. i find this oral-tradition gap highly doubtful.the documentary hypothesis explains things far to well, and the oral tradition tradition rings too much of dogma.

---

Remember that a lot of the ancient Hebrew names have changed due to the influence of Greek, Latin and even French. I find it interesting that, while there is a lot of debate about Yahweh vs. Jehovah, there seems to be much less conversation about the correct pronunciation of Jesus in Hebrew. Is it Yeshua, Y'shua, Yehoshua, or something else?The other question is how much these name changes really matter. I know there is something called the Hebrew Names Version of the Bible, which uses traitional Hebrew names (such as Havah instead of Eve), even in the New Testament (Yeshua instead of Jesus, e.g.). But do these changes really affect the meaning or understanding of the message? Do they affect whether the message is perceived as true or not? I don't think so.(BTW, the HNV uses the LORD instead of Jehovah or Yahweh.)

*pseudo-bump, for buzsaw* it's either or . you'll have to forgive me, i'm too lazy to type the vowels.the first bit, is "yehu / yeho" or "yahu" probably depending on the placement in the word. yahu tends to come at the end of a name, like yeshayahu, yeremiyahu, or even netanyahu, where as yehu / yeho tends to come at the beginning of a name. for instance, yehu, yehoshafat, etc. the difference between the oo and oh is a subtle and debatable one. i think it's "oo" when there's nothing after it, "oh" when there is. i could be wrong.the last bit, or is "shua." the "oo" here can be rendered with vowel points only, and sometimes is, so the vav is kind of optional.jews today pronounce the name "yehoshua." the "eh" is kind of soft and fast, so it sounds like "yoshua" with a bit of a pause. the usual english transliteration of the name is joshua.greeks spelled the name iesous, evidently pronounced "yay-sue" with the "ah" usually left off. you end up with strange names when you transliterated into other languages. eh, i'd even argue with their transliteration. i have my scheme that makes sense to me. for instance, "h" is not a good rendering of chet, in my opinion. i would spell eve's name "chavah" no, but if you (buz) are going to make a big stink over praying to the right god, and how god's name is not allah, then it'd be nice if you could get right. it's kind of a sign of respect -- who cares if we pronounce "eve" wrong -- god's a little more important.(yes, my crusade against the mispronounciation "jesus" is next. but it'll be a bit harder. people know who i'm talking about when i say "yahweh" but they don't when i say "yehoshua")

---

quote:

---

Remember that a lot of the ancient Hebrew names have changed due to the influence of Greek, Latin and even French. I find it interesting that, while there is a lot of debate about Yahweh vs. Jehovah, there seems to be much less conversation about the correct pronunciation of Jesus in Hebrew. Is it Yeshua, Y'shua, Yehoshua, or something else?

---

Its my understanding that YHWH is the Hebrew verb, "to be." Jehova came by synthesizing Yahweh and Adonai (the Lord) together. Jehova then is essentially a made up word. Then again, so is the name Jesus. But YHWH is said to be the proper name of God, denoting His highest emanation.

quote:

---

Do they affect whether the message is perceived as true or not? I don't think so.

---

God knows all things and I'm sure He is not going to hold us accountable for mistranslating His Name. Afterall, it was considered taboo, and still is, to even attempt to pronounce YHWH in most Judaic circles. Perhaps if it wasn't, we'd know for sure what God's proper Name is. In any case, I don't think it matters to Him. If it did, it would be plastered althroughout His Word.

close! points for effort. — (l'hyot) is "to be." the — (lamed) means "to..." the same way it does in english, and the root is . one adds the (vav) in that place for infinitives. i don't know why, it's just the rule.in this case, the vav does not appear in the present tense singular conjugation (hayah or hayeh, depending on gender) or the singular past tense female (hayah). the other reading is third person future, by the (yud) prefix, although it might also just indicate person. (i'm not too clear on that at just this second, i'll look harder).anyways, interpretters find it interesting that god's name encompasses both genders and all three tenses. but i'm not so much into that sort of thing. i think it's safe to assume that god's name describes a present, masculine condition. (god is consistently described as male in the bible. this is not my argument, i'm just aiming at consistency) but the specific conjugation of the word is not all that clear, and probably subject to some debate. especially since passive nouns like "to be" are almost never used in present tense in hebrew. but it is clear that it is derived from a rare usage of the present tense of —, as god says to moses: (ahayah asher ahayah, or "i am what i am." i think that's missing the point, really. it says not to take his name in vain. he's not against use of it, just misuse of it -- and that doesn't mean the specific name, either. it means anytime anyone invokes "in the name of god" they had better be careful, whether or not they say "yahweh." it's about things done in his name, not saying the name itself.and anyways, even in (some) jewish circles, people WILL pronounce the name for teaching purposes. the only place they allow "yahweh" to be said is in a classroom. now that i have a bit more education in the matter, i honestly find the whole "there are no vowels, so we don't know how it should be said" argument very spurious. you'll notice above most of the hebrew i typed has no vowels either. they're a pain to use, and a pain to type, and frankly a pain to remember. nobody uses them.we know how to say "yahweh" because, the yud makes a "ya" or "ye" sound 9 times out of ten, heh-vav makes a "hoo" or "hoe" sound, and a lone heh on the end makes an "ah" or "eh" sound, usually depending on gender. there are exceptions, but it's suprisingly easy to learn to read hebrew without the vowels. (i'm actually having some problems now typing all the vowels in english words lol)so looking at in hebrew, i'd read "ya-hu-eh" or something that sounds very very similar. the biggest and most obvious difference is the "va" sound. vav (like the other two letters) is a semi-vowel. when it's in the middle of a word, it's a vowel. only on the beginning of a word is it "vah" and then it means "and." a "vah" sound in the middle of a word would be made by a ‘ (bet), which takes on a "bah" sound at the beginning of the word. it's weird, i know, but you get used to it. as a general rule, things get softer towards the middle.i mentioned this in the other thread, but if i wanted to write "jehovah" in hebrew, i'd spell it: '‘. the tsadi-apostraphe on the begining makes the "jah" sound, and the bet in the middle makes the "vah" sound. it is.of course, i think god was being highly ironic with moses, or maybe just made up the name. (i mean, he IS god. it's not lik his parents named him)edit: tag screw up.This message has been edited by arachnophilia, 05-06-2006 09:39 PM

---

quote:

---

so looking at in hebrew, i'd read "ya-hu-eh" or something that sounds very very similar. the biggest and most obvious difference is the "va" sound. vav (like the other two letters) is a semi-vowel.

---

First of all, how did you get Hebrew font??? I've been looking into it for a while, but can't seem to find any computer generated programs that will allow for it. I checked into Babelfish, but they don't even offer Hebrew. Lastly, I thought it sounded like, 'ee-ah-oo-eh.' Is that about right? That's how I pronounce it anyhow.

well, jeeze, you don't want me to give all my secrets away, do you?hebrew, you see, is a real living language. lots of people can read it, and speak it. a significant portion of the population of israel does on a regular basis. they have to type it somehow. of course, it's not much problem there -- their keyboards have the hebrew alphabet on it. when they type, letters appear in hebrew.hebrew, and arabic, and greek, and russian, and a few other scripts are actually part of standard fonts -- the characters are in the unicode, in the lesser-used segments of the fonts. not all of them have full unicode support. you could write in hebrew, concievably, using character map. and i think the browser intuitively knows which direction to write. that's the only really confusing part, because sometimes it screws up. also, it doesn't always have proper vowel support. (the points in my signature, below, should be under the alef and the resh, not between the letters)that said, i find this far easier to use. especially the phonetic one. i just type the sounds i've already associated with keyboard positions. it takes a little getting used to, because a few are in funny places (like sin/shin on the w, tet on the o, and chet on the e)the bit from the bible, "ahayah asher ahayah" is taken from mechon-mamre, which is a free online masoretic/hebrew/english bible. i've linked to the side-by-side old jps and hebrew, because i find that the easiest to use. often, it's easier to copy a word from there than type it if i want the vowels. milon-morfix/melingo to the rescue. of course, you have to be able to type in hebrew to use it. prety close. because i've had to sound out a few hebrew words, i think of it as "ya-hu-eh" three syllables.This message has been edited by arachnophilia, 05-06-2006 10:49 PM

---