Cartoons and common sense

My question was what evidence you have that allows you to do this. I apologize for not clarifying that I meant from protestors of MidEast origin. There are many stated views. How do you come to choose what is representative of the majority? You have pointed to specifically extremist signs which are roundly criticized by members of the Islamic community (including the mideast).

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holmes
"What you need is sustained outrage...there's far too much unthinking respect given to authority." (M.Ivins)

If you ask a question two or three times and they won't answer it, they aren't going to. Obviously there can be problems in understanding what a question is and that might take a bit of back and forth. But if you have stated it clearly and the person just blows it off, they don't have an answer.Mark such posters in your mind so you don't waste as much time in the future.If it helps any, while I haven't read all of your exchanges what I have read made sense to me.

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holmes
"What you need is sustained outrage...there's far too much unthinking respect given to authority." (M.Ivins)

I have absolutely no idea which question he was referring to. I was just giving him a guideline if he felt questions were not being answered. I then added that from what I read of his posts he seemed to be making sense. That is I feel the thrust of his argument is correct, not that he was right that his questions are going unanswered.I'm not going to go back and read through to find out what question he wants answered.

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holmes
"What you need is sustained outrage...there's far too much unthinking respect given to authority." (M.Ivins)

I have specifically challenged the notion that "observations via the media", specifically yours, are accurate so as to make such an extrapolation. If you don't want to deal with that topic then fine, but it seems rather important to me when making such statements, and a challenge has been raised. The majority of the nation where a demonstration is in, across the region, or of the demonstrators? I was pointing out that the demonstrations were not large in comparison to population, particularly those sections resorting to violence. The majority of CA or the US did not get up and try to stop the LA riots, that does not mean the majority of the US agreed with their sentiments and actions.

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holmes
"What you need is sustained outrage...there's far too much unthinking respect given to authority." (M.Ivins)

No quibble about that! I agree. What I was stating is that when one intentionally acts to mock a belief system with known extremist and violent extremist faction, one can't claim "innocence" at what is to follow, and "ignorance" that things like death threats will follow.Lines do get drawn by societies (even if I disagree with that), and intriguingly the question is answered in Danish law. One is not supposed to ridicule religious dogma or disseminate insults to people because of their religion. That kind of law is in a number of European nations. That the case was dropped by Denmark seems a bit biased treatment.

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holmes
"What you need is sustained outrage...there's far too much unthinking respect given to authority." (M.Ivins)

That isn't true at all. We have moral proscriptions to speech just the same. It is mainly related to sexual, scatological, profane, and commercial speech. None of those harm anybody. And to be clear that is within the US, European nations may allow greater instances of sexual communication (though not necessarily in open newspapers) yet less instances of religious satire. Personally I am for totally free communication, and think muslims should not buy the paper or boycott things associated with the paper, or take the total high road and let it slide and show they can act better than an ignorant danish editor with little regard for people.However what "great freedom" are you talking about? In Denmark speech which mocks the dogma of other religions and dissemination of insults to others based on religion are against the law. They really do try and balance freedom of speech with responsible (nonprovocative or denigrating) speech.Danish muslims protested peacefully and filed a legal suit. It was dismissed for no credible reason given the clear language in the law.Intriguingly in the Netherlands a jewish group is filing the same type of suit against the maker/distributor of a cartoon within this thread (which crash posted). It'll be interesting to see what kind of headway it makes compared to legal challenges against anti Islamic imagery. The irony is that the jewish group said it was going to show muslims a lesson in how to properly address such communication... but they had and it was denied, thus part of the escalation.And as I noted within the Netherlands there was even a "banning" of some satire against the PM. According to the court certain kinds of satire are not allowed against public officials.

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holmes
"What you need is sustained outrage...there's far too much unthinking respect given to authority." (M.Ivins)

Most rallies, especially large ones, are planned by someone and promoted by someone. There are usually fliers or posters and yes there can even be newspaper advertisements.If you come when one is underway then I guess one might be confused as to what it is about, but usually people coming to a demonstration know what it is about beforehand.Truly I am baffled by your concept How do you think all those signs get made before it starts? Where does the material come from? That is true. But how many go hoping it will NOT turn into a riot and that all those idiots who are going to start one don't show up? Usually demonstrations don't get organized and advertised as "riots to follow".

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holmes
"What you need is sustained outrage...there's far too much unthinking respect given to authority." (M.Ivins)

You misunderstood what my point was. I was responding to your statement suggesting that demonstrations are not advertised in advance.My question was where signs come from if demonstrations are unplanned gatherings with no advance notice. Every recent? That's not true. There has been violence at many, but that does not mean every and does not mean that any violence appropriately characterizes the majority of the protest. I look forward to the protest you organize, without any promotion, and with no groups showing up that you don't want (or rather your ability to remove them when they do).

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holmes
"What you need is sustained outrage...there's far too much unthinking respect given to authority." (M.Ivins)

Actually that isn't true. Read the timeline I linked to in my post titled "cartoons and common sense... for real". It turns out that the paper had turned down running similar cartoons about Xians earlier, specifically because it might upset Xians, and there are laws in Denmark against ridiculing religious dogma and disseminating insults to people based on their religion.They started by protesting peacefully and seeking legal redress. The PM blew off ambassadors trying to talk to him, the protestors were completely ignored, and the criminal investigation was dropped without an adequate explanation given the clear language of the law in Denmark.

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holmes
"What you need is sustained outrage...there's far too much unthinking respect given to authority." (M.Ivins)

But usually they are widely advertised, especially the large ones. The point of promoting a demonstration is to get those involved you don't know specifically. Your example was an advertisement in a newspaper and that is the kind of place one can find announcements of upcoming demonstrations.Posters around a city are also very popular. Events begin with an intention that is specific and generally focused. Individuals are expected to make signs which support that general focus. Unfortunately that leaves a lot of room open to individual expression.The focus may be antiwar, but individuals make signs which are antibush. The focus may be against the publication of insulting cartoons, but individuals make signs which are antiWest or antiJewish.Have you been keeping up with the news that the more violent protests seem to have been engineered or infiltrated by extremist elements? Have you seen the denunciations by leaders of mideastern Islamic communities?

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holmes
"What you need is sustained outrage...there's far too much unthinking respect given to authority." (M.Ivins)

If they ALL have the exact same signs, and are chanting the exact same thing, then I guess it would make sense to assume one knows the overall purpose. But if there are a mixture of signs, and chants, then one might ask a few demonstrators, or yes try and find a flyer. That would make sense before choosing to join in or state one has a good idea what a demonstration (as a whole) is about. Well that's what I said. Yes of course those who were ready or capable of violent action could be incited to it. The question I raised is how many demonstrations as a whole were violent, and more importantly how many demonstrators within any protest were actually violent. You did say you felt comfortable extrapolating from what you had seen of these demonstrations to feelings and beliefs of muslims in the MidEast, not just the violent muslims of the MidEast.This message has been edited by holmes, 02-11-2006 11:32 AM

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holmes
"What you need is sustained outrage...there's far too much unthinking respect given to authority." (M.Ivins)

Will that be modelled after the rich, white, Zionist-Xian conspiracy, which invented and spread HIV?

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holmes
"What you need is sustained outrage...there's far too much unthinking respect given to authority." (M.Ivins)

Sure but ridiculing a religion by targeting its leader through visual imagery which itself is considered tantamount to blasphemy is nowhere close to making fun of flat earth theory, which some religious people might hold. Its not like Islam is a small and obscure religion.Honestly, there is no difference between the cartoons in this case and the kinds of imagery antijewish media created in nazi germany regarding jews. The intent was to mock a religion and the people belonging to it. Despite what I just said above, I agree with this sentiment. I don't like such laws, just discussing what they mean for those nations which do have them, if they are going to be consistent.

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holmes
"What you need is sustained outrage...there's far too much unthinking respect given to authority." (M.Ivins)

??? There's no such thing as that rule. It is a lame device used by people who would rather poke fun at others rather than discuss an issue. It is true that comparisons to nazis may be hyperbolic and characterize a desperate attempt to make an emotional appeal, but that does not exclude any and all references/comparisons to what nazis did.In this case it is apt and not part of some desperate emotional appeal, or guilt by association. There is a direct relationship between these two sets of imagery. The intent is to mock and deride a religious group based on stereotypes. For jews it was the ethnic features and unusual (mysterious) habits as well as financial practices not acceptable to many. For muslims it is ethnic features and unusual (mysterious) habits as well as military practices not acceptable to many.Look I'm not against the publication of these cartoons, I am simply pointing out that they would offend many people and were intended to offend, or amuse those that enjoy mocking people based on ignorant stereotyping.This message has been edited by holmes, 02-15-2006 03:47 PM

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holmes
"What you need is sustained outrage...there's far too much unthinking respect given to authority." (M.Ivins)

That jews are hooknosed, ratlike hermits who spend their time screwing people over for money and obscure religious fanaticism.

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holmes
"What you need is sustained outrage...there's far too much unthinking respect given to authority." (M.Ivins)