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Author Topic:   Death before the 'Fall'?
nwr
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Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 9 of 230 (274360)
12-31-2005 8:30 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by ReverendDG
12-31-2005 12:56 AM


there was death before the fall, if you define plants as life, I've had people dismiss plants as being alive, but what are plants then some odd living yet non-living thing?
I have seen a creationist comment suggesting that only fruits, seeds and vegetative growth were eaten prior to the fall. Thus the plant would not be killed.
Hmm, it is a bit strange to not consider seeds to be alive, particularly when many creationists say that a human embryo is a living baby.

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 Message 5 by ReverendDG, posted 12-31-2005 12:56 AM ReverendDG has replied

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nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 18 of 230 (274481)
12-31-2005 6:10 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Faith
12-31-2005 5:57 PM


Re: A few scripture references
Where would I get my beliefs exxcept from the Bible?
I would hope that you get most of them by looking around and seeing the way the world really is.
If the way you get your beliefs is not as I just suggested, then it won't be long before you walk in front of a truck (or bus or car) and you will not be long in this world.

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nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 35 of 230 (274718)
01-01-2006 5:11 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by randman
01-01-2006 4:47 PM


Re: A few scripture references
randman writes:
Adam immediately spiritually died as was indicated by his awareness of his sin (nakedness), ...
I'm not sure how to make sense of that.
Are you saying that knowledge = spiritual death? Is that why some creationists work so hard at being ignorant

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 Message 32 by randman, posted 01-01-2006 4:47 PM randman has replied

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nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 40 of 230 (274753)
01-01-2006 6:26 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
01-01-2006 6:18 PM


Re: A few scripture references
quote:
Ecclesiastes 1:18 writes:
For with much wisdom comes much sorrow; the more knowledge, the more grief.

Is grief the same thing as spiritual death?

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 Message 39 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 01-01-2006 6:18 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has replied

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nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 188 of 230 (286900)
02-15-2006 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 187 by jaywill
02-15-2006 7:46 AM


Re: Parent's Perrogative
God says "Ooops. I shouldn't have said that Adam is going to die today. Hmmm. Now how do I get out of this one?"
C'mon guys. Can you conceive a Being Whose knowledge and wisdom is infinite?
What about the flood story, where God apparently says "Oops! I shouldn't have done that. I will invent the rainbow as a sign that I will never do it again."

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 Message 187 by jaywill, posted 02-15-2006 7:46 AM jaywill has replied

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nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 206 of 230 (287623)
02-17-2006 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 205 by iano
02-17-2006 8:13 AM


Re: Dilemma
The discussion revolves around whether there was death before the fall or not. We are not told directly that there was or that there wasn't so we try to garner from evidence as to what was the case.
A common sense reading of the story is that the plants and animals were all pretty much similar to what we see today. But the Garden of Eden was a special place, so perhaps there was no death inside the garden.

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 Message 205 by iano, posted 02-17-2006 8:13 AM iano has replied

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nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 213 of 230 (288109)
02-18-2006 1:46 PM
Reply to: Message 207 by iano
02-17-2006 6:20 PM


Re: Dilemma
The story of the bible is about mans fall and Gods plan to enable restoration back to that which was lost. Included in that is eternal life - a restoration of that intended from the beginning
I don't see much in the way of a biblical basis for your reading of the story.
IMO the story is intended as an explanation of what distinguishes humans from other animals. In a way, it is a recognition that we are animals, just like all of the others -- you could see that as consistent with evolution. However, we seem to be different, something that some people use claim that we are conscious but other animals are not. The eating of the fruit of the tree, to confer knowledge of good and evil, is the explanation for this distinction between us and other animals. The suffering of pain in childbirth is one of the costs that we are said to pay because of being conscious.

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