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Author Topic:   Death before the 'Fall'?
Garrett
Member (Idle past 6166 days)
Posts: 111
From: Dallas, TX
Joined: 02-10-2006


Message 196 of 230 (287033)
02-15-2006 4:05 PM
Reply to: Message 194 by jaywill
02-15-2006 1:47 PM


Re: Wait a minute!
Christ about 11 since he actually defines what is moral...me about 2 on a good day. :-)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by jaywill, posted 02-15-2006 1:47 PM jaywill has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 197 of 230 (287093)
02-15-2006 6:13 PM
Reply to: Message 194 by jaywill
02-15-2006 1:47 PM


Re: Wait a minute!
quote:
Then you should not be bothered if I ask you this:
What is it about Christian literalists that they cannot stick to the point? This has absolutely nothing to do with the point at hand.
In a previous post you stated:
If Adam had expired completely before sunset then there would be no human race for God to save. That would mean that the enemy of God thwarted God's plan.
You imply that God would not allow anyone or anything to thwart his plans. Since (according to your beliefs) the majority of the human race is going to burn in Hell for ever, this implies that you believe that this must have been a part of God's plan. I was trying to get you to clarify whether you really feel this is the case (admittedly, my use of witticism didn't make this too clear).
You didn't clarify your point; instead, your response had nothing to do with it at all. And in your post make the statement:
But we shouldn't think about it too much. At least Calvin suggested that we should not think about it too much.
Which sounds an awful lot like you found the question uncomfortable and didn't want it discussed.
On the other hand:
quote:
Was the damnation and torment of humanity a part of God's plan? I don't know. I would like to think that it was not. But I am prepared to discard that if one day I realize that there is no other way than to believe that it was.
This statement at least does address the point about which I was asking. So in the end you have answered the question that I asked.

"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by jaywill, posted 02-15-2006 1:47 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 201 by jaywill, posted 02-15-2006 8:37 PM Chiroptera has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 198 of 230 (287105)
02-15-2006 6:47 PM
Reply to: Message 187 by jaywill
02-15-2006 7:46 AM


What Promise
quote:
God has to now break his promise to kill off Adam before the sun goes down.
Is every statement a promise?
Genesis 2:16
The LORD God commanded the man, saying, "From any tree of the garden you may eat freely;
2:17
but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die."
I see no promise in the text.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by jaywill, posted 02-15-2006 7:46 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 200 by jaywill, posted 02-15-2006 8:11 PM purpledawn has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 199 of 230 (287122)
02-15-2006 8:08 PM
Reply to: Message 195 by Garrett
02-15-2006 4:04 PM


Re: Evidence that there was no death before the Fall
Duh...of course I meant Cain.
Hey, I make plenty of typos.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by Garrett, posted 02-15-2006 4:04 PM Garrett has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 200 of 230 (287123)
02-15-2006 8:11 PM
Reply to: Message 198 by purpledawn
02-15-2006 6:47 PM


Re: What Promise
Is every statement a promise?
I see no promise in the text.
I was arguing against the concept of Rrhain that God's "promise," so to speak, was that Adam would collapse in death before sunset.
I was using irony to argue against that concept, not for.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by purpledawn, posted 02-15-2006 6:47 PM purpledawn has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 201 of 230 (287130)
02-15-2006 8:37 PM
Reply to: Message 197 by Chiroptera
02-15-2006 6:13 PM


Re: Wait a minute!
What is it about Christian literalists that they cannot stick to the point? This has absolutely nothing to do with the point at hand.
I said "Okay" meaning that it was noted that you drew a parellel between ny saying that we shouldn't think about the terrible perdition and the attitude of your mass murderers. No change of point.
So you want to answer my question about your relative moral position on a scale of 1 to 10 as compared to Christ's? Your point is made. Now let me examine your sense of judgment a bit further. Why evade the question?
In a previous post you stated:
If Adam had expired completely before sunset then there would be no human race for God to save. That would mean that the enemy of God thwarted God's plan.
You imply that God would not allow anyone or anything to thwart his plans. Since (according to your beliefs) the majority of the human race is going to burn in Hell for ever,
Can you point out where I gave percentages one way or another?
And would you consider answering my question about the moral scale with you and Christ on it?
this implies that you believe that this must have been a part of God's plan.
I believe that "in Christ" is the realm and sphere of God's plan. So we should ask God to place us "in Christ."
"Even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and without blemish before Him in love predestinating us unto sonship through Jesus Christ" (Epd. 1:4,5)
God seems willing at any time to place us "in Christ" if we ask Him to do that.
I was trying to get you to clarify whether you really feel this is the case (admittedly, my use of witticism didn't make this too clear).
You didn't clarify your point; instead, your response had nothing to do with it at all. And in your post make the statement:
I don't want to get you confused with another poster. It is awkward to go back and forth to check, once I have started typing.
But I think I answered someone quite clearly that I did not know if millions of people damned was a part of God's plan. I think I answered quite clearly that I hoped that it was not and that I would be prepared to adopt such a belief that it was, if convinced of its inevitability. So I think there was no evasion to this question.
Was that your question?
But we shouldn't think about it too much. At least Calvin suggested that we should not think about it too much.
Which sounds an awful lot like you found the question uncomfortable and didn't want it discussed.
There is no shame in someone feeling uncomfortable to discuss something. The spiritual family has different levels of maturity and growth. I don't insist that a young person HAS to discuss something very heavy if they feel that they are yet not able to do so.
There is no law that the instant one becomes a Chirstian she or he MUST be comfortable to be conversant in ALL aspects of the gospel.
My saying that one should not think about it was qualified with "too much." I didn't say that one should altogether evade the matter.
Eternal perdition is a fact. It is a tragic fact. Those who will not believe in Christ seem trapped in an inescapable labyrinth, a maze of dead ends of their own reasoning. The best thing to do is to receive the gift of salvation and believe in Christ.
Do you wish me to talk about nothing but people burning in hell? Is that what you want? There is an awful lot in the Bible besides that matter.
Was the damnation and torment of humanity a part of God's plan? I don't know. I would like to think that it was not. But I am prepared to discard that if one day I realize that there is no other way than to believe that it was.
This statement at least does address the point about which I was asking. So in the end you have answered the question that I asked.
Thanks.
Maybe you want to recipicate now. You posed a very tough philosophical problem. Give me a chance to deal with it.
On the scale of 1 to 10 where are you and where is Jesus, as to goodness, justness, righteousness, equity? You're smart. Play along and see what comes out.
I think you'll have a decent push back if you disagree with where I'm going.
This message has been edited by jaywill, 02-15-2006 08:38 PM
This message has been edited by jaywill, 02-15-2006 08:41 PM
This message has been edited by jaywill, 02-15-2006 08:42 PM
This message has been edited by jaywill, 02-15-2006 08:47 PM
This message has been edited by jaywill, 02-15-2006 08:47 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by Chiroptera, posted 02-15-2006 6:13 PM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 202 by Chiroptera, posted 02-16-2006 12:07 AM jaywill has replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 202 of 230 (287182)
02-16-2006 12:07 AM
Reply to: Message 201 by jaywill
02-15-2006 8:37 PM


Re: Wait a minute!
quote:
On the scale of 1 to 10 where are you and where is Jesus, as to goodness, justness, righteousness, equity?
I'd give myself 8.5. Jesus maybe about the same.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by jaywill, posted 02-15-2006 8:37 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 208 by Brian, posted 02-18-2006 6:16 AM Chiroptera has replied
 Message 212 by jaywill, posted 02-18-2006 1:34 PM Chiroptera has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 203 of 230 (287276)
02-16-2006 10:17 AM
Reply to: Message 158 by purpledawn
02-13-2006 8:55 PM


For Purpledawn
Bump for Purpledawn. In your 3 minute soapbox you gave me as an example of a "logical error hit and runner" - but haven't responded to my post arguing that you have made a logical error eg: False dilema

This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by purpledawn, posted 02-13-2006 8:55 PM purpledawn has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 204 of 230 (287377)
02-16-2006 3:42 PM
Reply to: Message 157 by iano
02-13-2006 7:06 PM


Dilemma
1. I wasn't thinking of you when I wrote hit and run.
2.
quote:
but haven't responded to my post arguing that you have made a logical error eg: False dilema
Sure I did in Message 158.
Talking about critters, not people.
Why else do animals have offspring other than to continue the species?
You were talking about people and I wasn't, so it was back in your ball court to come up with the other reasons animals needed to reproduce beside continuation of the species.
All you provided in Message 164 was:
iano writes:
You'd have to ask Him, but suffice to say there can be other reasons than simply to replace those that die. He might like animals - who knows. And lets not worry about overpopulating the earth - God knew what would happen in advance. We cannot assume the solution based on lack of insight into why he did what he did.
IOW all you said was that only God knows. So you have no other reasons other than what I stated.
I don't really understand the logical fallacy thing which you should now gather from my 3 minutes.
I don't understand how my reasoning was in error or why classified as a "false dilemma."
I think Rrhain pretty much covered anything I would have said in Message 181 concerning Message 164.
3. I don't understand the begging-the-question deal.
So not much I could say.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by iano, posted 02-13-2006 7:06 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 205 by iano, posted 02-17-2006 8:13 AM purpledawn has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 205 of 230 (287551)
02-17-2006 8:13 AM
Reply to: Message 204 by purpledawn
02-16-2006 3:42 PM


Re: Dilemma
The discussion revolves around whether there was death before the fall or not. We are not told directly that there was or that there wasn't so we try to garner from evidence as to what was the case.
pd writes:
Talking about critters, not people. Why else do animals have offspring other than to continue the species?
Whether we are talking of people, animals or plants is neither here nor there. We are in the dark (directly) on all fronts as to what went on before the fall regarding death. You offer evidence as to why death existed before the fall by way of this post-fall example - which presumes death existed. That, in my view, begs the question.
It also presents us with a single choice as to why animals reproduced when there are reasonable alternatives. It is not necessary that we know why God may have wanted the earth to be populated other than to account for death. We can, for example, suppose that God created man in the first place, not because he had to but simply because he wanted to. God wanting to do something simply because he wants to is a valid alternative even if we don't know why he might have done so.
If this latter point is acceptable then you would have been engaging in presenting a false dilemna - offering an example (reproduce to replace dying creatures) as if it were the only choice when in fact, it isn't.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by purpledawn, posted 02-16-2006 3:42 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 206 by nwr, posted 02-17-2006 11:13 AM iano has replied
 Message 211 by purpledawn, posted 02-18-2006 1:24 PM iano has not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 206 of 230 (287623)
02-17-2006 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 205 by iano
02-17-2006 8:13 AM


Re: Dilemma
The discussion revolves around whether there was death before the fall or not. We are not told directly that there was or that there wasn't so we try to garner from evidence as to what was the case.
A common sense reading of the story is that the plants and animals were all pretty much similar to what we see today. But the Garden of Eden was a special place, so perhaps there was no death inside the garden.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by iano, posted 02-17-2006 8:13 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 207 by iano, posted 02-17-2006 6:20 PM nwr has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 207 of 230 (287834)
02-17-2006 6:20 PM
Reply to: Message 206 by nwr
02-17-2006 11:13 AM


Re: Dilemma
nwr writes:
A common sense reading of the story is that the plants and animals were all pretty much similar to what we see today. But the Garden of Eden was a special place, so perhaps there was no death inside the garden
That's a bit too hopeful (with respect) a position. We are told some of the conseqences of the fall regarding eg: pain in childbirth/sweat of brow in providing for oneself. We have as much difficulty imagining no death as we do no pain in childbirth / no sweat in surviving. but these other things weren't around at the time before the fall - it would seem.
I haven't thought about it in depth but I see nothing yet pointing definitively at either death/life prior to the fall. The evidence I think lies more in the overall story and it points towards "no death" The story of the bible is about mans fall and Gods plan to enable restoration back to that which was lost. Included in that is eternal life - a restoration of that intended from the beginning

This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by nwr, posted 02-17-2006 11:13 AM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 213 by nwr, posted 02-18-2006 1:46 PM iano has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 208 of 230 (288019)
02-18-2006 6:16 AM
Reply to: Message 202 by Chiroptera
02-16-2006 12:07 AM


Re: Wait a minute!
I'd give myself 8.5. Jesus maybe about the same.
You do yourself an injustice, you seem to be a much nicer chap than Jesus was.
I can't imagine you deliberately misleading people, or using violence.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by Chiroptera, posted 02-16-2006 12:07 AM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 210 by Chiroptera, posted 02-18-2006 10:48 AM Brian has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 209 of 230 (288022)
02-18-2006 7:03 AM
Reply to: Message 146 by Garrett
02-13-2006 10:49 AM


Re: Evidence that there was no death before the Fall
The quick answer is that the breath of life was not breathed into plants by God.
Life wasn’t breathed into women either, guess they aren’t technically alive either?
Genesis 2:21-22
So the LORD God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man's ribs and closed up the place with flesh. Then the LORD God made a woman from the rib he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man.
Because of Adam, a curse of death and suffering was brought into anotherwise perfect world.
You mean a ”very good’ world?
Because of God's loving sacrifice, in the form of Jesus, we can be justified to the old way of things and enjoy eternal life free from death and suffering in the world yet to come.
Sounds like hell to me.
As to Jesus ”sacrifice’, it was hardly a big deal was it?
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by Garrett, posted 02-13-2006 10:49 AM Garrett has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 210 of 230 (288057)
02-18-2006 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 208 by Brian
02-18-2006 6:16 AM


Re: Wait a minute!
Well, since the Gospels are rather vague as to how Jesus actually lived his day-to-day life I decided to give him the benefit of the doubt.
Since the Gospels don't say much about how often Jesus did things like help elderly women carry their baskets home from the market, or really anything else about his daily habits that would allow us to determine how "moral" or "righteous" he was, I should actually give him an incomplete.
Added by edit:
You know, I didn't even want to answer that lame question, but jaywill badgered me into answering because he had some sort of point to make. I wish he'd make his point; it's been a couple of days already.
This message has been edited by Chiroptera, 18-Feb-2006 03:50 PM

"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by Brian, posted 02-18-2006 6:16 AM Brian has not replied

  
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