Death before the 'Fall'?

If you are going to find fault with my reasoning concerning the text, then keep to the text.

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It also presents us with a single choice as to why animals reproduced when there are reasonable alternatives. It is not necessary that we know why God may have wanted the earth to be populated other than to account for death. We can, for example, suppose that God created man in the first place, not because he had to but simply because he wanted to. God wanting to do something simply because he wants to is a valid alternative even if we don't know why he might have done so.

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If this latter point is acceptable then you would have been engaging in presenting a false dilemna - offering an example (reproduce to replace dying creatures) as if it were the only choice when in fact, it isn't.

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Not acceptable. Per the plain text, what is the other choice? God can do what he wants, isn't part of the text.No where in the text does God imply that any change was made to the animals (aside from the serpent) after A&E ate.In Genesis 2:15-17, God is talking to Adam. Adam was forbidden to eat from the tree of KG&E and subsequently Eve, but the animals were not.If Adam eats he will surely die, not that if he eats it, he will cause God to change all of creation.Adam and Eve were banished from the Garden, not the animals.God didn't want man to eat from the tree of life, not animals. Nothing implies that the animals changed, were banned from the garden, couldn't eat from the special trees or if they even had access to the garden or the trees to begin with.God provided food for the animals and providing food implies the potential for starvation.God put Adam in the Garden, nothing is mentioned of the animals. Even when the serpent is talking, it doesn't say he is in the Garden.IOW, the Garden incident didn't change the animals (except the snake), only man. Whatever they were before, they were after.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

Chiroptrea, Sorry for the delay.Do you have any thoughts on why the impact of Jesus Christ on human history has been so much more than your impact?If you are about the same on the scale doesn't His impact on history seem to be more noticable than yours?But that is not my main question. I ask that because I was a little surprised that you would class yourself as virtually equal to Jesus Christ.My main question is if you and Jesus are about an 8.5 on the scale how do you think you and Jesus might graduate up another degree to, let us say, 9.5?This message has been edited by jaywill, 02-18-2006 01:35 PM

I don't see much in the way of a biblical basis for your reading of the story.IMO the story is intended as an explanation of what distinguishes humans from other animals. In a way, it is a recognition that we are animals, just like all of the others -- you could see that as consistent with evolution. However, we seem to be different, something that some people use claim that we are conscious but other animals are not. The eating of the fruit of the tree, to confer knowledge of good and evil, is the explanation for this distinction between us and other animals. The suffering of pain in childbirth is one of the costs that we are said to pay because of being conscious.

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Do you have any thoughts on why the impact of Jesus Christ on human history has been so much more than your impact?

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Is this another question? Because it doesn't seem to be related to the question of how Jesus' "righteousness" compares to mine.-

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My main question is if you and Jesus are about an 8.5 on the scale how do you think you and Jesus might graduate up another degree to, let us say, 9.5?

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That would be hard to say since, as I told Brian, the only record we have of Jesus' life are the Christian Gospels, and they don't really record how Jesus conducted his life on a day-to-day business. They really only concern themselves with his teachings, and those only occupied the last couple of years of his life. I thought I was being rather generous in giving him an 8.5.-

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I ask that because I was a little surprised that you would class yourself as virtually equal to Jesus Christ.

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Why would you be surprised by this? Since you asked the question you presumably didn't know how I would have answered it. For all you knew, I could have rated myself 10 and Jesus 1.-At any rate, you asked me how I would rate myself for morality and ethics on a scale of 1 to 10 and I answered 8.5. You asked me how I would rate Jesus, and, making some assumptions in his favor, I replied 8.5 as well.-

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Sorry for the delay.

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No problem; we are all busy. I just didn't see the point to the question, so I was a bit annoyed when you asked me to answer it several times and then I had to wait before you got to your point.Come to think of it, I'm still waiting for the point.

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"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

Just a little reality check. Forget it then.You would rate yourself and Jesus Christ in roughly the same class. I'll accept that answer. I think it is hard to say. But not for the reason you state. There is plenty in the gospels telling us how Christ conducted His business. Doing His Father's will was His business.Particularly in Mark's gospel, the world "immediately" used so many times portrays a picture of what Jesus did virtually by a moment by moment manner ... "immediatly" He did this or "immediately" He did that.As much as is plausible for four gospels to display the major daily activities of someone's life for thirty three and a half years they did a pretty good job of discribing His daily business. It includes His meals, His rest, His meetings, His teachings, His miracle, His reactions where you really find out where a person is, His discussions.Aside from these things we have examples of His prayers. We have examples of Him avoiding crowds. We have examples of Him moving into the midst of crouds. We see Him tired. And we see Him working late into the day. We see Him sleeping. We see Him eating and partying at a feast. We see Him in temptation. We see Him angry. We see Him weeping. We see Him just shedding a tear.So I quite emphatically disagree that the typical daily life of Jesus is not discribed in the four gospels. We may not have many details of His childhood. But His ministry as a priest according to the law of Moses should begin at the age of 30. And that is the important part for us to know.Of course we see Him heal the sick and raise the dead. We see Him arguing with His opposers, rebuking His disciples, commending or scolding His seekers, and encouraging those interested in His work. We see His parables which describe His life's philosophy. And we see His behavior under scrutinization of lawyers and His demeanor under torture.Last of all we see His composure, demeanor, and attitude after His resurrection. We even get a glimps of His attitude after His ascension - standing rather than sitting when the first Christian martyr was killed.We see enough of the daily life of Jesus to either love Him or hate Him. We see enough to have a strong reaction about Him one way or another. There is no such scanty details as you suggest about the daily life of Jesus. We see Him singing a hymn. We even hear Him at least talking about eliminating waste from the body.We have four biographies in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. There is plenty there to muse over about what kind of man Jesus was. And for 2,000 some years plus many have written volumes upon volumes on that life.So I don't think lack of written details about Christ's day to day business is an obstacle to you suggesting how He could move from a 8.5 to an 9.5. If the gospels don't describe the day to day business of Christ what do they describe? I think the true reason for your difficulty to describe how He or you could move from 8.5 to 9.5 is that that your level is 8.5. It is as 8.5 that you think. It is at that level that you have your concept and your understanding.I think that it is difficult for you to suggest how you could improve because your level is your level. And it is primarily at that level of goodness you reason and your concept stands. Perhaps once your yourself grow on to be at 9.5 then you can tell how Jesus can come up to your new level.Now my point behind this, since I have worn your 8.5 "Christ like" patience thin (smile), is that if someone were substantially above and beyond our present level on the scale it is conceivable that they may act in ways that we would not understand.They may do things which were outside of our concept. Just as some things done by an adult are beyond the conception of a child or even an adolescent. A man of 25 may not grasp the actions of a man at 65 in the fullest measure. That is because he is at 25 and reasons on that level.I consider that some things Christ may do I would not understand because His level of righteousness is far beyond my own level. The possibility at least does exist that I don't fathom the equity and the justness of His action.These are some of the things that I think about when someone insinuates that the Lord Jesus behaves like a mass murderer with no conscience. I leave room for the fact that along with all the merciful things that I ALSO see coming from Christ, perhaps there is a concept of justice that is simply beyond my level of understanding.What prompted this question to you and my discussion of it was your suggestion that I exhibited the attitude of a mass murderer. I think that is something I have to think about. My response is to obey the commission of my Master to preach the gospel to all nations that they may be saved.My reaction is not to be so crippled with the thought of damnation that I refuse to preach the gospel but only marvel that God could be so cruel. At least I have His word that He "desires all men to come be saved and to come to the full knowledge of the truth "(1 Tim. 4:2).This message has been edited by jaywill, 02-18-2006 04:12 PMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 02-18-2006 04:14 PMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 02-18-2006 04:17 PMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 02-18-2006 04:19 PM

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Forget it then.

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Consider it forgotten.-

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So I quite emphatically disagree that the typical daily life of Jesus is not discribed in the four gospels.

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The problem is that we are not given enough information to make a judgement as to Jesus' "morality" or ethics. At least I don't see enough to judge.-

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I think the true reason for your difficulty to describe how He or you could move from 8.5 to 9.5

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Yeah, now you're "trying to get into my head" and figure out what I think and why. This seems to be a common trait amongst evangelicals (although other people also have this annoying habit). Maybe instead of trying to find reasons for my answers you should accept what I just said.-

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What prompted this question to you and my discussion of it was your suggestion that I exhibited the attitude of a mass murderer.

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Actually, I suggested no such thing. I was commenting on your answer to the question of whether the God described in the Christian Bible is a mass murderer, namely that one shouldn't "think about it too much". Too many despots get away with what they do because their loyal followers decide the questions are too difficult and they shouldn't think about them too much.I do agree that if one is committed a priori to a certain view point or ideology then one shouldn't think too deeply about the difficult questions that arise. However, you then run the risk of trapping yourself in a false view of the world.

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"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

Jaywill and Chiroptera, You are off topic. Your last few posts haven't concerned the topic - "Death Before the Fall."Please refrain from continuing this line of discussion in this thread.If you feel there is more to say, then please start a new topic.Please direct any comments concerning this Admin post to the moderation link listed below.Thank you

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Usually, in a well-conducted debate, speakers are either emotionally uncommitted or can preserve sufficient detachment to maintain a coolly academic approach.-- Encylopedia Brittanica, on debate

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Now I will turn to evidence of sin and death in a world prior to the Adam’s world under his dominion. Revelation 20 speaks of the final judgment of all rebellious creatures at the great white throne:"And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne . " (Rev. 20:12a). There no doubt to me that dead human beings are indicated here. But what about the next verse?"And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, each of them, according to their works" (Rev. 20:13).All human beings who die go to Hades. All human beings from Adam throughout all human history die to be held by death and Hades. Why then does the Apostle John say that " . the sea gave up the dead which were in it, . ?" There should be no reason for John to differenciate between the dead humans in Hades and the dead humans who have drowned in the sea. Men who die on the land have their souls go to Hades. Men who die at sea ALSO have their souls go to Hades. But John says that in addition to those in death and Hades, the sea also gave up the dead which were in it.I say that "the dead" held in the sea probably refers to the demons. Now we must look at the biblical evidence supporting this claim. But my explanations will be concise and not exhaustive. The forum requires brevity.First some may object that the demons are bad angels and that nowhere are we told that bad angels die. My response is that the demons are not the same as bad angels.In Acts 23 the Pharisees recognized that there were spirits and there were angels, two class of spiritual beings - "and some of the scribes of the Pharisees’s party rose up and contended, saying, We find nothing evil in this man. And what if a spirit has spoken to him, or an angel?" (Acts 23:9). The Saducees countered them incorrectly not believing in either angels or spirits - "For the Saducees say that there is no resurrection, neither angel nor spirit; but the Pharisees confess both" (23:8).These verses are submitted not to prove that the Pharisees were that clear about the nature of demons but only to demonstrate that they recognized other spiritual beings besides angels.Secondly, there is evidence that the demons are non angelic spirits who are supposed to be confined to the sea:Jesus teaches "When the unclean spirit goes out from the man, it roams through waterless places; seeking rest, and does not find it" (Matt.12:43). This verse proves that in this present age the demons prefer these three states of existence in this order:To inhabit a human being’s body.
To roam about in search of a human body.
To dwell in the sea as a watered place.
They are supposed to be in a watery place, i.e. the sea. They leave that realm and demon possess a sinner’s human body. When they are expelled from there they wander about in "waterless places" seeking rest. The Lord continues with demonic behavior:"Then it says, I will return to my house from which I came out. And it comes and finds it unoccupied, swept, and decorated. Then it goes and takes along with itself seven other spirits more evil than itself, and they enter in and settle down there. And the last state of that man becomes worse thay the first.Thus shall it be also with this eevil generation." (Matt.12:44,45)The wandering demon finds no new subject. Instead of returning to the watery place it returns to the previous man. This time to secure a greater hold over the man the demon brings the reinforcement of seven other demons more evil than itself. This assures the demonic spirits that it will be more difficult to be cast out of the man whose body they are treating as a house.Why are the demons so desparate to hold on to the human body? It is because they have lost their own physical bodies. This probably happened in the pre-Adamic age. These evil beings were not humans. And we don’t know what they were. But it is apparent that they are "the dead" given up by the big watery place, the sea, to be judged with humans at the great white throne.Now how else can we know that these demon spirits are supposed to be in the sea? It is evident from Matthew 8 that they rushed down into the sea when Jesus cast them out of a man, allowing them to possess the bodies of hogs:"And when He came to the other side, into the region of the Gadarenes, two possessed by demons met Him, as they were coming out of the tombs, so exceedingly fierce that no one was able to pass by on that road.

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And behold, they (the demons) cried out, saying, What do we have to do with You, Son of God? Have you come here before the time to torment us? Now there was, a good way off from them, a herd of many hogs feeding. And the demons entreateed Him, saying, If You cast is out, send us into the herd of hogs. And He said to them, Go! Abd they came out and went into the hogs. And behold, the whole herd rushed down the steep slope into the sea, and they died in the waters" (Matt. 8:28-32)Now we have to add to our list of places that the demons prefer to live in order of best to worse:The prefer to have their own physical bodies. But they have lost them. Hence they are the dead evil spirits. If they cannot have their original bodies they prefer a human body. And to secure one they will gather more demons, even a legion, to hold on strongly that they may not be cast out. If a servant of God or the Son of God casts them out of a human body they would prefer to enter into an animals body. They entreated the Lord Jesus to send them into the herd of hogs. The hogs not being able to tolerate the demon possession for some reason are forced to kill themselves in the water. The demons return to the sea, the watery place from which they were wandering. Last of all is the worst of all. They await in the sea, the watery place, for the judgment in which they will be tormented. The eternal perdition is the worst state for them.The demons are supposed to be in the sea awaiting the terrible doom of their eternal torment. They know that "the time" will come. They roam around in a suffering state of disembodiment seeking sinful humans that they may demon possess their bodies. But in Revelation 20 the dead who are not in Hades but in the sea are given up at that time to be judged and tormented for their evil works in pre-Adamic times and in post-Adamic times.There is one more verse that I would refer to to prove that the demons are the disembodied spirits of some creatures assigned to the sea. That is Revelation 16:13:"And I saw, out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits as frogs;

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For they are the spirits of demons doing signs, which go forth to the kings of the whole inhabited earth to gather them to the war of the great day of God the Almighty."In John’s vision he saw the demons as frogs. This is meaningful. A frog is an amphibian animal which lives in the water but hops up onto the dry land occasionally to move around. This symbolism indicates that the demons are assigned to the sea, to the watery place as their confined area of judgment after God destroyed the pre-Adamic world. But somehow, in rebellion, they come up out of the sea and wander about on the land like the amphibian frog.After the judgment of the great white throne, the sea as the prison for demons will be replaced by the second death, the lake of fire. Since the holding place for the pre-Adamic dead is no longer needed there will be no more need for the sea in the new heaven and new earth:"And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and the sea is no more" (Rev. 21:1).In eternity future when all the evil angels, unbelievers, and demons have been judged two things will no longer be needed. That is death and Hades as the receptical for dead humans and the sea as the recepticle for the pre-Adamic dead beings who followed Satan. Revelation 21:1 tells us that the sea is no more by then. And Revelation 20:13 tells us that death and Hades are likewise discarded:"And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, each of them, according to their works.

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And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire."These verses have been presented to prove that sin and death existed in the pre-Adamic world before Adam was created and failed God. Then sin and death entered into the world which was put under Adam’s dominion through Satan's seduction and usurpation.This message has been edited by jaywill, 02-20-2006 05:25 PMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 02-20-2006 05:29 PMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 02-20-2006 11:14 PMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 02-20-2006 11:23 PM

I don't know about the sea holding the demons. I think maybe it's because I love the ocean so much, but also it's not the strongest argument.But there is something there....On the general idea, I like the way you refer to "the world" as the world under Adam. That may be correct. After all, we do have translators referring to replenishing the earth. I also think your scenario is more admirable due to not calling the hypothetical race of beings "men." That's always been a beef with me; referring to preAdamic men when Adam is the first man in the scriptures.Gotta think about this "sea" thing....note btw that the sea is also used as a reference to the world.

There may be a hint of it in the natural world which God created for our eyes to see. Have you ever noticed how in the deeper depths of the ocean the fish begin to look more and more grotesque?The sea is spoken positively about in Scripture. So I don't think that one has to disdain the sea for these reasons. Nor need we disdain the upper atmosphere just because Satan is called "the ruler of the authority of the air" (Eph.2:2). The rebellious angels are also associated with the heavenlies - "world-rulers of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenlies" (Eph. 6:12).I think we can still admire the physical beauty of the sea, the air, and the heavenlies in spite of these things. However, Revelation does say that in the new heaven and new earth the sea will be no more. I think that the previous economy in the universe before Adam may have been totally unlike anything we could imagine. I don't understand many things about this. But my feeling today is that there was a pre-Adamic world in which the lines of authority and government over those creatures was something much different from today.Whatever it was it was totally destroyed by God and replaced with a new order. Perhaps we are looking out at the earth and the solar system and seeing today the ruined remnants kingdom in a by-gone ancient era. That is true.This message has been edited by jaywill, 02-20-2006 11:47 PM

Why pretend to understand something about a person you don't even believe in? You start dying the day your born.

Really? So all that growing and changing is actually a process of dying and not of living?

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If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist!
*not an actual doctor

There are parts of you that are already developed that start dying the day your born.

But, neither Adam nor Eve were born.Brian.

I have never participated in this discussion before. I ran into this page while googling something completely irrelevant. The discussion has been on for too long and I managed to go into a few pages. What I would like to comment on, for now, is the significance of God knowing in advance what we are going to do in our lives. The concept is deep: He KNOWS because He KNOWS US. He does not make us do anything, that is entirely our choice. Knowing that something will take place does not mean causing it to happen at all. So no one was or is doomed to sin. And the reason that God knows but does not interfere (meaning that He does not force us to not sin) is that He has let us be free, He has given us free will. And if you really consider it, how else would our life and choices have true value? If there was a God - Dynast who would force good on us? Then what would we have done to save ourselves? We need to make that choice with our own free will or it has no value at all. Everyone needs to go through experiences, pleasant times and hardships as well in order to shape their heart and character, in order to improve and reach a higher level in spiritual life. If a teacher gave all the answers to the students before the test took place, what good would that be for them? What would they have gained? Nothing. We should not feel afraid when thinkng that God knows the course of our lives because we do not. We need to try and win what can be ours, what He has offered us but only if we really desire it.