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Author Topic:   Death before the 'Fall'?
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 189 of 230 (286903)
02-15-2006 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 187 by jaywill
02-15-2006 7:46 AM


conception vs actuality
quote:
Can you conceive a Being Whose knowledge and wisdom is infinite?
It's not that we can't conceive of it; it's that the god described in the Old Testament doesn't seem to exhibit those qualities.

"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by jaywill, posted 02-15-2006 7:46 AM jaywill has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 190 of 230 (286906)
02-15-2006 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 185 by jaywill
02-15-2006 7:25 AM


Wait a minute!
quote:
If Adam had expired completely before sunset then there would be no human race for God to save. That would mean that the enemy of God thwarted God's plan.
Unless God's plan was for billions of people to burn in Hell for all eternity, the enemy has succeeded in thwarting God's plan.

"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by jaywill, posted 02-15-2006 7:25 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 192 by jaywill, posted 02-15-2006 1:08 PM Chiroptera has replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 193 of 230 (286927)
02-15-2006 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 192 by jaywill
02-15-2006 1:08 PM


Re: Wait a minute!
My comment was a response on your comment on whether or not "the enemy" has succeeded in thwarting God's plan.
You stated that God wasn't going to allow for his plan to be "thwarted".
Did God have a plan prior to creation? Are things going according to that plan? If not, then his plans have been thwarted. You seem to be saying that the eternal torment of humanity was a part of God's plan from the beginning.
-
quote:
But we shouldn't think about it too much.
I do believe that this is the standard defense of mass murderers and despots when they are tried for crimes against humanity.

"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by jaywill, posted 02-15-2006 1:08 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 194 by jaywill, posted 02-15-2006 1:47 PM Chiroptera has replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 197 of 230 (287093)
02-15-2006 6:13 PM
Reply to: Message 194 by jaywill
02-15-2006 1:47 PM


Re: Wait a minute!
quote:
Then you should not be bothered if I ask you this:
What is it about Christian literalists that they cannot stick to the point? This has absolutely nothing to do with the point at hand.
In a previous post you stated:
If Adam had expired completely before sunset then there would be no human race for God to save. That would mean that the enemy of God thwarted God's plan.
You imply that God would not allow anyone or anything to thwart his plans. Since (according to your beliefs) the majority of the human race is going to burn in Hell for ever, this implies that you believe that this must have been a part of God's plan. I was trying to get you to clarify whether you really feel this is the case (admittedly, my use of witticism didn't make this too clear).
You didn't clarify your point; instead, your response had nothing to do with it at all. And in your post make the statement:
But we shouldn't think about it too much. At least Calvin suggested that we should not think about it too much.
Which sounds an awful lot like you found the question uncomfortable and didn't want it discussed.
On the other hand:
quote:
Was the damnation and torment of humanity a part of God's plan? I don't know. I would like to think that it was not. But I am prepared to discard that if one day I realize that there is no other way than to believe that it was.
This statement at least does address the point about which I was asking. So in the end you have answered the question that I asked.

"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by jaywill, posted 02-15-2006 1:47 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 201 by jaywill, posted 02-15-2006 8:37 PM Chiroptera has replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 202 of 230 (287182)
02-16-2006 12:07 AM
Reply to: Message 201 by jaywill
02-15-2006 8:37 PM


Re: Wait a minute!
quote:
On the scale of 1 to 10 where are you and where is Jesus, as to goodness, justness, righteousness, equity?
I'd give myself 8.5. Jesus maybe about the same.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by jaywill, posted 02-15-2006 8:37 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 208 by Brian, posted 02-18-2006 6:16 AM Chiroptera has replied
 Message 212 by jaywill, posted 02-18-2006 1:34 PM Chiroptera has replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 210 of 230 (288057)
02-18-2006 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 208 by Brian
02-18-2006 6:16 AM


Re: Wait a minute!
Well, since the Gospels are rather vague as to how Jesus actually lived his day-to-day life I decided to give him the benefit of the doubt.
Since the Gospels don't say much about how often Jesus did things like help elderly women carry their baskets home from the market, or really anything else about his daily habits that would allow us to determine how "moral" or "righteous" he was, I should actually give him an incomplete.
Added by edit:
You know, I didn't even want to answer that lame question, but jaywill badgered me into answering because he had some sort of point to make. I wish he'd make his point; it's been a couple of days already.
This message has been edited by Chiroptera, 18-Feb-2006 03:50 PM

"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by Brian, posted 02-18-2006 6:16 AM Brian has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 214 of 230 (288113)
02-18-2006 1:51 PM
Reply to: Message 212 by jaywill
02-18-2006 1:34 PM


Re: Wait a minute!
quote:
Do you have any thoughts on why the impact of Jesus Christ on human history has been so much more than your impact?
Is this another question? Because it doesn't seem to be related to the question of how Jesus' "righteousness" compares to mine.
-
quote:
My main question is if you and Jesus are about an 8.5 on the scale how do you think you and Jesus might graduate up another degree to, let us say, 9.5?
That would be hard to say since, as I told Brian, the only record we have of Jesus' life are the Christian Gospels, and they don't really record how Jesus conducted his life on a day-to-day business. They really only concern themselves with his teachings, and those only occupied the last couple of years of his life. I thought I was being rather generous in giving him an 8.5.
-
quote:
I ask that because I was a little surprised that you would class yourself as virtually equal to Jesus Christ.
Why would you be surprised by this? Since you asked the question you presumably didn't know how I would have answered it. For all you knew, I could have rated myself 10 and Jesus 1.
-
At any rate, you asked me how I would rate myself for morality and ethics on a scale of 1 to 10 and I answered 8.5. You asked me how I would rate Jesus, and, making some assumptions in his favor, I replied 8.5 as well.
-
quote:
Sorry for the delay.
No problem; we are all busy. I just didn't see the point to the question, so I was a bit annoyed when you asked me to answer it several times and then I had to wait before you got to your point.
Come to think of it, I'm still waiting for the point.

"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by jaywill, posted 02-18-2006 1:34 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 215 by jaywill, posted 02-18-2006 4:11 PM Chiroptera has replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 216 of 230 (288208)
02-18-2006 7:19 PM
Reply to: Message 215 by jaywill
02-18-2006 4:11 PM


Re: Wait a minute!
quote:
Forget it then.
Consider it forgotten.
-
quote:
So I quite emphatically disagree that the typical daily life of Jesus is not discribed in the four gospels.
The problem is that we are not given enough information to make a judgement as to Jesus' "morality" or ethics. At least I don't see enough to judge.
-
quote:
I think the true reason for your difficulty to describe how He or you could move from 8.5 to 9.5
Yeah, now you're "trying to get into my head" and figure out what I think and why. This seems to be a common trait amongst evangelicals (although other people also have this annoying habit). Maybe instead of trying to find reasons for my answers you should accept what I just said.
-
quote:
What prompted this question to you and my discussion of it was your suggestion that I exhibited the attitude of a mass murderer.
Actually, I suggested no such thing. I was commenting on your answer to the question of whether the God described in the Christian Bible is a mass murderer, namely that one shouldn't "think about it too much". Too many despots get away with what they do because their loyal followers decide the questions are too difficult and they shouldn't think about them too much.
I do agree that if one is committed a priori to a certain view point or ideology then one shouldn't think too deeply about the difficult questions that arise. However, you then run the risk of trapping yourself in a false view of the world.

"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by jaywill, posted 02-18-2006 4:11 PM jaywill has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 217 by AdminPD, posted 02-18-2006 8:06 PM Chiroptera has not replied

  
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