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Author Topic:   When is a belief system a Mental Disorder?
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 86 of 252 (287703)
02-17-2006 2:28 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by robinrohan
02-15-2006 6:31 AM


Re: What struck me
quote:
Think of the alternative--what sort of world one is faced with if one accepts evolution
The kind that makes sense?
Oh, the horror.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by robinrohan, posted 02-15-2006 6:31 AM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by robinrohan, posted 02-17-2006 2:30 PM nator has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 88 of 252 (287706)
02-17-2006 2:31 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Faith
02-15-2006 9:27 AM


quote:
There is an invisible world of living beings. Believing in this is not in itself crazy. Every culture on earth has acknowledged such beings. Jesus had to deal with demons who had possessed people.
No, no, Faith, those are the space aliens, not demons, not invisible beings.
They are just highly advanced beings with technology we can't understand.
You people who believe they are supernatural are exactly like the cargo cult people.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Faith, posted 02-15-2006 9:27 AM Faith has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 90 of 252 (287709)
02-17-2006 2:33 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Faith
02-15-2006 10:11 AM


quote:
God never told an individual to kill anyone.
How do you know?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Faith, posted 02-15-2006 10:11 AM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by 1.61803, posted 02-17-2006 2:36 PM nator has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 92 of 252 (287712)
02-17-2006 2:38 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by SuperNintendo Chalmers
02-15-2006 10:27 AM


Re: relgion does not equal insanity
quote:
I'll try to think of a better example that doesn't require any specialized knowledge (maybe people who don't believe dinosaurs existed?)
How about the example of the woman who's new boyfriend is molesting her daughter, the kid tells her, the mother simply decides to not believe the daughter, even though she has seen the obvious clues and signs and there is also physical evidence, etc.
Hindsight is 20/20 and all that.
Indulging in willful ignorance and self-delusion in order to avoid emotional discomfort is very very common in humans.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by SuperNintendo Chalmers, posted 02-15-2006 10:27 AM SuperNintendo Chalmers has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 93 of 252 (287718)
02-17-2006 2:47 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by robinrohan
02-17-2006 2:30 PM


Re: What struck me
quote:
The kind that's meaningless, short, and brutal.
What do those three descriptors have to do with the change in allele frequencies in populations over time?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by robinrohan, posted 02-17-2006 2:30 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by robinrohan, posted 02-17-2006 3:28 PM nator has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 98 of 252 (287797)
02-17-2006 5:02 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by robinrohan
02-17-2006 3:28 PM


Re: What struck me
quote:
Those changes in "allele frequencies," as you put it so innocuously, mean that we are accidents of a mindless universe.
What does the above have to do, neccessarily, with "meaningless, short, and brutal" lives?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by robinrohan, posted 02-17-2006 3:28 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by robinrohan, posted 02-17-2006 5:12 PM nator has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 100 of 252 (287816)
02-17-2006 5:37 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by robinrohan
02-17-2006 5:12 PM


Re: What struck me
quote:
I think you would agree that your life will last maybe 90 years or so at the best, even with your great health habits? That's short.
It is?
According to what objective standard?
And what does this have to do with the change in allele frequencies over time?
quote:
I often think, Schraf, that one should have two lives. I've spent all these years learning how to live, wasting my time. It seems a shame that I should not have another, in which to apply the lesson.
Yeah, that is too bad.
What does this have to do with the change in allele frequencies over time?
quote:
I think you would agree that life has no purpose other than subjective ones? That means your life is meaningless, objectively speaking.
But I do not live my life meaninglessly, so....so what?
I don't crave some kind of external validation for the meaning I assign to my life.
But what does the change in allele frequencies over time have to do with chosen meaning, anyway? There could be objective purpose and change in allele frequencies in populations over time.
quote:
As far as the brutal part, you've probably already experienced some of it. More to come. It's the blight man (and woman) was born for.
I experienced nothing in my life that I consider truly brutal. As "brutal"" is ultimately a subjective term, it is pretty useless in this context.
What does that have to do with the change in allele frequencies over time.
quote:
This is all due to the accidental nature of us.
I don't understand this conclusion at all.
Please lay out the logical progression for me that starts with "accidental" and leads to "brutal, short, and meaningless".
Please leave out the purely subjective judgements.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by robinrohan, posted 02-17-2006 5:12 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by robinrohan, posted 02-17-2006 6:41 PM nator has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 124 of 252 (288028)
02-18-2006 8:45 AM
Reply to: Message 102 by robinrohan
02-17-2006 6:41 PM


Re: What struck me
quote:
We are products of a mindless universe. We have no purpose. We just happen to be here. We can think up purposes of our own, but of course this is something we just make up. No purpose is any better than any other purpose--because we make it up. We live for awhile and then we cease to exist. We are of no more importance than the wind that blows across the Texas plains. During this time we struggle trying to figure out what we should do, how we should live. We never figure it out. The reason is there is no answer to that question. It doesn't matter what we do or how we live. A hundred years from now it's all the same. We are of no more significance than a roach crawling across the floor.
You've simply stated a series of your favorite conclusions from the premise, and alsmost all of them are entirely subjective.
You have provided no logical progression at all, just a bunch of your own subjective assertions.
In particular, the bit about what we do, not having significance is simply wrong on it's face. We may die, but what we do now can impact future events. In fact, I would say that this is inevitable.
Just because you may feel like you've wasted your life and couldn't figure it out doesn't mean that everyone else has, or couldn't.
Try again.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by robinrohan, posted 02-17-2006 6:41 PM robinrohan has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by Faith, posted 02-18-2006 10:05 AM nator has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 125 of 252 (288029)
02-18-2006 8:46 AM
Reply to: Message 103 by Faith
02-17-2006 6:44 PM


Re: What struck me
quote:
people who run their lives on the fumes of their own subjectivity simply haven't thought it through carefully.
But that's precisely what RR IS doing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by Faith, posted 02-17-2006 6:44 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by Faith, posted 02-18-2006 9:17 AM nator has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 133 of 252 (288311)
02-19-2006 7:15 AM
Reply to: Message 126 by Faith
02-18-2006 9:17 AM


Re: What struck me
quote:
Not at all. I don't know why there is this misunderstanding but his statements are completely objective (2+2=4) about meaning in life -- in the context of Darwinism for sure -- and those who think the meaning is what they themselves create are the subjective ones.
RR believes that, objectively, life has no meaning at all.
Therefore, if he attaches some kind of meaning regarding life to acceptance of the ToE, he is, by his own definition, presenting a subjective opinion.
Since you agree that his conclusion, that if one accepts that allele frequencies in populations change over time, one MUST also logically conclude that life is "meaningless, brutal, and short", then perhaps you would be so kind as to lay out the logical progression that starts at the former and ends at the latter and includes no subjective statements?
So far, he hasn't been able to, although I haven't read the rest of the thread yet.
The error you and Robin are making is this: Because you can't derive meaning in life from X, you assume that X excludes the possibility of meaning in life.
In your case, "X" is the TOE. Replace X with "Life is carbon-based". I doubt you can derive meaning in life from "Life is carbon-based" either. Does that mean that if one accepts "Life is carbon-based" that one must agree that life is meaningless, brutal and short?
Seems silly, doesn't it? But I have seen no other argument provided.
If you have another argument, then lay it out for me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by Faith, posted 02-18-2006 9:17 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by Faith, posted 02-19-2006 10:58 AM nator has replied
 Message 135 by robinrohan, posted 02-19-2006 12:08 PM nator has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 137 of 252 (288358)
02-19-2006 1:57 PM
Reply to: Message 134 by Faith
02-19-2006 10:58 AM


Re: Objective meaning
quote:
There IS objectively speaking NO inherent meaning to life if it all derived from biochemical processes.
You have no way of knowing if that is true or not.
There IS objectively speaking NO inherent meaning to life if it all based upon carbon.
There IS objectively speaking NO inherent meaning to life if the sky is blue.
There IS objectively speaking NO inherent meaning to life if it all E=MC2.
See? Silly.
This message has been edited by schrafinator, 02-19-2006 02:05 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by Faith, posted 02-19-2006 10:58 AM Faith has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 138 of 252 (288359)
02-19-2006 2:02 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by robinrohan
02-19-2006 12:08 PM


Re: What struck me
quote:
Think in terms of "formal purpose."
Well, ok, but...
how does acceptance that all life is carbon-based logically progress to "life is meaningless, brutal, and short"? (I am particularly interested in your objective definition of "short" in this context.)
I mean, unless you are trying to say that the ToE even has a "formal purpose", which is even more nonsensical. It's like saying that gravity has a "formal purpose".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by robinrohan, posted 02-19-2006 12:08 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by robinrohan, posted 02-19-2006 3:13 PM nator has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 167 of 252 (289022)
02-21-2006 7:56 AM
Reply to: Message 162 by crashfrog
02-20-2006 11:28 PM


Re: Shortness of life
quote:
Even newborn infants prefer the faces of supermodels to the super-ugly.
And, conversely, studies also show that the cuter and more attractive an infant is, the more attention their mother will give to them, even to the point of being more likely to ignore a less-attractive baby who wanders off in a grocery store compared to keeping a careful watch over the cure one.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by crashfrog, posted 02-20-2006 11:28 PM crashfrog has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 170 by Omnivorous, posted 02-21-2006 8:15 AM nator has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 168 of 252 (289024)
02-21-2006 8:01 AM
Reply to: Message 163 by Faith
02-21-2006 5:44 AM


Re: Shortness of life
quote:
But of course if someone marries someone completely different, say from a different race, that can be genetically rationalized too, right?
Hybrid vigor.
Of course, genetics are not destiny. We are strongly influenced by them, of course, but since we have consciousness as well, our actions and decisions in mate selection are a mix of the two.
It is both nature and nurture, so to speak.
quote:
All I can say to the whole thing is: How unromantic.
I think it's pretty interesting, actually.
Nothing about understanding such things makes my feelings for my husband any less.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by Faith, posted 02-21-2006 5:44 AM Faith has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 169 of 252 (289027)
02-21-2006 8:07 AM
Reply to: Message 166 by robinrohan
02-21-2006 6:09 AM


Re: Shortness of life
quote:
I just didn't think we worried too much about what some theoretical children in the future were going to look like and be like.
Like crash has explained already, we don't have to consciously, actively, literally think about future children for it to influence our behavior.
There is a genetic basis for lots of behavioral tendencies that you don't think about on a conscious level but they are at work, nevertheless.
We can see this in disordered behavior, such as addiction or OCD. People with these genetically-influenced tendencies can more easily succomb to destructive behaviors than those without them. Yet few people who suffer from these disorders are consciously aware of the tendency until it negatively affects their lives. They just follow their desires and their impulses.
This message has been edited by schrafinator, 02-21-2006 08:10 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by robinrohan, posted 02-21-2006 6:09 AM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 171 by robinrohan, posted 02-21-2006 8:31 AM nator has replied

  
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