A Theological Defense of "Gap Theory"

I don't actually think there is a contradiction between our positions in relation to what your saying. I don't think Adam and Eve were the first to sin, just the first to bring sin into the world. I think, since Satan isn't a human-bound entity, that an actual human would have to sin to bring the curse onto the world. Satan had already been given his curse, which also resulted in separation from God, in the form of banishment from Heaven.The caveat is that God and Satan exist outside of our space and time, therefore they aren't bound by any human timeline. Time is only a construct used to describe the relation and movement of planets to each other (with the exception of the "week", which has no planetary basis...only based on the creation week). And then, only provided, by God, as a way for humans to track the passing of events. In other words, the "battle" between God and Satan in all likelyhood is much more ancient than the chronological time we have seen on Earth. But that would have no bearing on our timeline on Earth, in my opinion.

So,Has Garret "let fthe building"? or is he just lying low for a while after being suspended.Answering one post on this thread after the suspension, he has had time to read, at least, the others.Garret,For the record, I take the failure of any answer to my post:
http://EvC Forum: A Theological Defense of "Gap Theory"To be an "answer" of the first variety listed in my previous reply to you.You made the claim: I have presented a refutation to the concept that the YEC idea can be scientifically correct due to evidence of an old earth.It is time to acknowledge the challenge and to back up your claim.Enjoy.

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I have thought in recent years that time is something God created for our existence. Time and space, I believe, are God's creation for our existence. We perceive it and can hardly think in terms without it.But when people speak of heaven having no time, I am not sure about that. The book of Revelation mentions one half hour in heaven. And a half and hour is without doubt a measure of time. See Revelation 8:1:"And when He opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour." (Rev. 8:1)I think heaven, whatever and wherever it is, must be a created realm also. What could be without begining for eternity, except God Himself?The parellel is probably not perfect or possible but just as they say gravity is caused by the curvature of space around mass, so time may be the effect of the curvature of eternity around God.This message has been edited by jaywill, 02-21-2006 12:05 AMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 02-21-2006 12:07 AM

No, I've not yet joined Elvis....unfortunately I do have a day job..what a bummer.For the record, my failure to answer your previous post is only related to time limitations, and I really am not too concerned what you take the absence of my answer to mean.I did make that claim, and will provide my case as soon as I decide I want to discuss that topic.

Interesting thought...obviously it's not something we can conclusively know.The verse you reference in Revelation was written by a John. Since he is a human, we would expect him to relate to us in human "earthly" terms. My interpretation would be that John is describing in human terms the amount of time that passed. I think if you were to have heaven and earth split screen during this event, it's possible that we'd see the earth side not moving...or the heaven side moving faster...or vice versa even. I just don't think there is necessarily a parallel between time in heaven and time on earth.I agree that heaven is a created place..the angels are referenced as created beings on several occasions. I'm still of the opinion that time is only a construct in our material universe and that it works differently, if at all, in heaven, etc... Obviously I'm not dogmatic on this issue.

Garret, Thanks for the answer. Most of us do, but I also realize that the effort to reply to many {threads\posts\posters} can be daunting. Just wanted to be sure. I can wait. Just be aware that I do consider the YEC concept to be falsified, hence invalid, until the question is answered on the Age Dating thread.Also be aware that the amount of evidence for a position is not of relevance if there is evidence that invalidates it. This means that before submitting evidence for you need to answer the evidence against.Enjoy.

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Garrett, At this time I see the matter pretty much the same way.When I look at the earth it seems flat. But we know that this is just an effect of our perception. The whole earth is somewhat round. On contemplating this matter I extended it.I began to think that time was something which we perceive and need for our practical existence. But its true nature is something else.In all this I see the love of God. He has created an environment our of His love for our existence. And we are for His eternal purpose.

I've read this thread from one end to the other but I still have to see exactly what it is you are defending?Since there are so many variatons to what is called the "Gap Theory" could you state in clear terms what it is you mean by the Construction/Reconstruction Theory.Thanx

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We are the sum of all that is, and has been. We will be the sum of our choices.

Jor-elI think Destruction / Reconstruction is what you meant to write.I follow G.H. Pember and others who believe that the date of the creation of the universe is not specified in the Bible. Verse one of Genesis informs us that at the time of this unspecified date in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.The condition of the earth in verse two was the result of a overthrow and destruction of some previous world of beings that predate human beings. That system of things was under the Anointed Cherub who is today Satan the devil. That pre-Adamic economy of things was judged by God in details which are only slightly revealed in the Bible.Some unknown interval of time therefore existed between the time that God created the heavens and the earth and the earth with its previous economy of things was judged and rendered without form and void - damaged, ruined, and vacant. God then took six days to restore the environment and do further new creation of living things. The center of this new restoration and further creation was man. Adam and Eve therefore were the first human beings created by God. And the new world was placed under man's dominion. The previous being was replaced as having the dominion. And that dominion was given to man.But the being Satan with his hosts and the disembodied spirits of the physical beings of that pre-Adamic age still oppose God's new arrangement with man as the head of creation.So we can somewhat ascertain the approximate time of the creation of the first humans Adam and Eve and the world put under human dominion. But the age of the universe is unknown. The age of the planet is unknown. And the precise nature of the former system of things in pre-Adamic age/s is only barely revealed in the Bible.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Sorry about the blunder with "Destruction / Reconstruction" Well, I would like to know how you, according to this theory, stand in relation to Adam and Eves' immortality, before the fall, as well as the purpose of the trees of knowledge and life in the context of the Genesis account?It also goes without saying that death already exists by the time of the reconstruction in this context. How do you account for this if mainstream interpretation says the opposite?

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We are the sum of all that is, and has been. We will be the sum of our choices.

Have you read are long running discussion on The Tree of Life as the Life of God? You'll find some answers there as far as what I believe the Bible teaches.Romans 5:12 says that through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin. Adam opened the door to allow sin and death to enter into the world.The world that Paul says sin and death entered must have some limits to it. The pre-Adamic earth was really not man's world. Satan and his fallen angels who were surely sinful were also not really a part of man's world. What living beings who sinned and died, lossing their physical bodies and becoming disembodied demons in the pre-Adamic age, were also not a part of Adam's world.By the time Adam was created, Satan, his hosts, the demons were lurking nearby to spoil God's new economy. It was Adam who opened the door of the world put under his dominion and allowed sin and death to enter into the world as we know it.If you read Genesis 1:26 with this kind of emphasis I can make my point - "And God said, Let Us make man in Our image, ... and let them have dominion ..."If I emphasis "let THEM have dominion" I hightlight that the former deputy authority upon earth has been fired, nullified, replaced, and made jobless. The dominion is turned over to a new creation - not angelic but made of the humble dust, and made in the image of God. God says that the old order is over and now He would let MAN have dominion.The old opposition party is still lurking around ready to oppose God and spoil His eternal purpose. Having seduced Eve and Adam they usurped the human authority and sin and death entered into the world. This was a preemptive attack. I have no doubt that had Adam continued to obey God he together with God would have executed the ancient opposition party. Satan knew that man's creation was a signal for his own execution. He struck preemtively to thwart God's strategic move to totally eliminate the remnants of the old rebellion.God could do many things alone by Himself. But He will not. He wants to act in coordination with His creature man to destroy the Devil. The Creator would not fight with the creature. The Creator would create another creature and cause a triangle situation to exist in the universe. The triangle is God, Satan, and man in between. The direction that man turns with his free will is crucial.God would have man, His new creature, turn his will twoward God. This would tip the balance toward the divine will. And the Creator in coordination and in harmony with the creature would together eliminate the opposition party. Man turned the wrong direction and the fall of man and his world occured.But God cannot be defeated. The rest of the Bible concerns how God overcomes every obstacle and eventually accomplished His eternal purpose with man anyway, and that bringing more glory to Himself in the eyes of all creation. He cannot be stopped. He can only be delayed temporarily.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

I think most people understand the tree of life to mean simply an endless human immortality - and everlasting life.The tree of life does not point merely to an everlasting human life. The tree of life signifies God presenting Himself to man as "food" that man could get God to enter into him. This is for the dispensing of God's life into man that man might be an 'organic" union of God and man.God's eternal purpose is to dispense Himself as the divine and uncreated life into man that man and God may be united, mingled, and brought into oneness - for His glory and man's enjoyment.Jesus Christ is the mingling of God and man. Jesus Christ is the perfect union of the Divine and the Human. And God's eternal purpose is in a very real sense to mass produce Christ. The tree of life was not simply the food of an endless life. It was the the way for God to dispense Himself into mans being to produce sons of God who share His life and nature.I think the evidence of Genesis is that Adam was already created with an everlasting human life. He was not told that to fail to eat of the tree of life would cause him to die. He was told that to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil would cause him to die.These two trees represent to elements which can enter into man's being. The tree of the knowledge of good and evil caused man to become Satanified and united with Satan. Man thereafter spontaneously expresses Satan who has joined himself to man in a parasitic relationship - man being the host and Satan being the parasite.If you consider man being made in the image of God like a glove being made in the image of a hand, you can understand that as the glove was made to contain the hand, so was man made to contain God. The hand fits quite comfortably into the glove and the two move and are expressed together as one. So the tree of life represented God's will to enter into man that God may live in man and man may live out and through God.Paul say fallen mankind is "alienated from the life of God" (Eph. 4:18). He is not just alienated from God. He is alienated from the life of God. This alienation from the life of God started when Adam was excluded from participation in the tree of life after his disobedience (Genesis 3:22-24).The story of the Bible is about God bringing man back to the life of God. It not merely God granting man an everlasting life. It is more than that. It is about God granting the created human life participation in the uncreated and divine life of God Himself that Christ might be the "Firstborn among many brothers" (Rom. 8:29). That is a God-man. God wants God-people who are people in an eternal organic union with Himself.

It is true that God gives us eternal life as we put our faith in him and his word. Yet there is also a common misunderstanding in todays mainstream church that we achieve this eternal life by being faithful christians. The bible actually states that this eternal life is through the tree of life alone and our access to this tree is what we are striving for in our daily christian lives.Here are some interesting verses that show exactly this concept: Revelation 2:7
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God. Revelation 22:2
down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations.Revelation 22:14
"Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city.Revelation 22:19
And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.So it is apparent that this very same tree of life that was in the Garden of Eden is what gave Adam and Eve their immortality, nothing else. Death as we know it already existed in creation right from the word go (that includes the so called pre-Adamite world).That is a proven scientific fact. The oldest fossil on record is 2.1 billion years old. That sort of makes this particular topic moot since what we are talking about refers at most to the last 300 000 years. Another aspect is that for man to have dominion, he would have to have been able to procreate before the fall since that is the message inherent in the verse. Thus all life as such would also have had this ability. Think what would soon happen if there was procreation without death.As such we can see that mans immortality was a special condition provided by an outside source, the TREE OF LIFE.Genesis 3:22
And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."To argue the opposite would undermine the Gap Theory itself. What you seem to be implying is that the tree of life is a metaphor and not a real thing that existed in the garden and continues to exist in heaven (paradise). What evidence in Genesis (or the Bible for that matter)?Does one need to be told to eat and live? No
One needs to be told what not to eat so that one might continue to live.------------------------------------------------------------------ It doesn't say that death entered the world, it says that sin entered the world and thus brought death as a consequence.It is a consequence of sin or in this case of Adam and Eves', Disobedience to Gods' Law. This death mentioned in the above verse has 2 components one is spiritual and the other is physical. Both are related with one another.
The spiritual death, (separation from the presence of God) is what God is referring to specifically, the physical death is a consequence of the spiritual death since Adam and Eve were expelled from the Garden.--------------------------------------------------------------It seems that you concentrate alot on the this pre-Adamite world but it's existence is secondary to the central theme of the Gap Theory.

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We are the sum of all that is, and has been. We will be the sum of our choices.

Jor-el, If we define a Christian as a person who has the Spirit of the resurrected Christ then of course ”hav[ing]” Christ is to having the eternal life.”And this is the testimony, that God gave to us eternal life and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.” (1 John 5:11,12)The eternal life is in the Son Jesus Christ. To have the Son is to have the eternal life. To not have the Son is to not have the eternal life.Then having the Son Christ is belonging to Christ because of the indwelling of the Spirit of Christ: ” . Yet if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not of Him” (Rom. 8:9). So one must have the Spirit of the Christ who died and rose for our redemption and in His pneumatic form can enter into our beings. Today He is the eternal and divine life of God - ”I am the way and the reality and the life, no one comes to the Father except through Me” (John 14:6).So of course being a “faithful Christian” is the way to receive eternal life - if you use my definition that to have Christ in His form as ”the Spirit of Christ” is basically to be a Christian. Christ enters into the “heart” of man through faith - ”That Christ may make His home in your hearts through faith” (Eph. 3:17).
So one must have faith in the resurrected and living Savior Jesus Christ for Him to make His home in one’s heart. We should think today that the tree of life is Christ. In Genesis there was a tree of life with fruit. God acted upon man’s interaction with that tree in obedience to His word. Today it is absolutely our interaction with Jesus through God’s word in place of the Genesis tree in a garden. Today the tree of life for us is the man Jesus Christ, God’s Son.In John 15 He says that He is the true vine and we are the branches meant to abide in Him. He is the vine tree of life. And by our abiding in this vine tree He dispenses the divine life inherent in the true vine into the abiding branches of the vine - “I am the true vine, and My Father is the husbandman . I am the vine; you are the branches, He who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit; for apart from Me you can do nothing.” (See John 15:1-5) This is metaphorical speaking for abiding in the living Christ and “eating” Him. It is paradise to receive Christ and live by Him. To those who enjoy this “eating” of Christ as life today, the promise of more enjoyable and deeper eating is reserved for the next age. The eater who foretastes this rich feast today will enjoy a fuller feast in the coming age. This verse has two aspects and I won’t deal with both right now in detail. Only “the healing of the nations” by the leaves of the tree of life refers to the healing of peoples mercifully left by God on the earth who are saved yet not reborn and regenerated sons of God. The sons of God will be a healing to the people’s who are left on the earth in coming ages. These nations will be as Adam was before his fall into Satan’s rebellion. He was “very good” (Gen.1:31) yet he was not indwelt with by the life of God which was to come from his eating of the tree of life.As for the river of the water of life flowing down the middle of the golden street this is metaphorical language also. The golden street represents the divine nature of the Father by which man walks in His eternal salvation. The river of the water of life is the Holy Spirit. The way the street goes the river flows. The walk and the flowing go together. The flowing of the Spirit of Christ allows man to know when He is walking in the divine nature of the Father.Much more could be said about this. This is just a very brief word on a deep symbol of Revelation 22:2. Christ is central to all of these verses in Revelation 21 and 22. The only inhabitants of the city of God are those who have received the Spirit of Christ. They have all been redeemed by His precious blood shed on His cross for our forgiveness - ”But you have come forward to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem . and to the church of the firstborn . and to Jesus, the Mediator of a new covenant; and to the blood of sprinkling, which speaks something better than that of Abel” (See Hebrews 12:22-24).You see? To come to the ”heavenly Jerusalem” which is ”the city of the living God” is to come to Jesus the Mediator and to the sprinkling of His redemptive blood. We don’t want that. I don’t. I think the more crucial point I want to make is that today the tree of life for mankind is exactly Jesus Christ the Son of God. And this is so on out into eternity. What do you think Paul means when he writes that fallen man is “alienated from the life of God?”I believe this means that man was alienated from God Himself as divine life. When God dispenses His divine life into man immediately His relationship with man is not merely Creator to a creature. Rather He is then the Father to the children of God by means of the union of His life with ours.Although Luke does say Adam was a son of God, the phrase there only means that Adam came directly from God’s creating action. But sons of God in the fullest New Testament sense means that God’s Spirit has entered into man’s spirit and dispensed His very life and nature into man’s being - ”He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit” (1 Cor. 6:17). The two spirits - God the divine life giving Spirit and the human spirit are joined, mingled, and organically united within man. This causes man to become a real son of the Father with the Father’s life and nature implanted within her or him as a divine seed of life.The salvation of man in the ultimate sense in the Bible is being mingled with God, united with God, and in an incorporation with God. This is what Jesus Christ is - God and man united in perfect union. And this is the salvation of God extended to man - ”In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you” (John 14:20). And again the Son’s prayer to His Father: ”Father, concerning that which You have given Me, I desire that they also may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory, which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world” (John 17:24) . And again the Son’s aspiration and petition that we be perfected into divine / human oneness - ”That they all may be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also mau be in Us; that the world may believe that You have sent Me. And the glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, even as We are one; I in them, and You in Me, that they may be perfected into one, that the world may know that You have sent Me and have loved them even as You have loved Me” (John 17:21-23) At this point most of my reasons for believing in a pre-Adamic world are theological. I don’t get into dating methods too much these days. I think that a previous world was destroyed and rendered the earth without form and void in Genesis 1:2.It may seem to our finite minds that God is reacting to miscellaneous events. Actually, I think His providence and sovereignty transcend time and are mysteriously causing all things to work together for His eternal purpose. His transcendence over time is unimaginable. And His ability to make all things work together for His eternal plan is more than astounding. So the pre-Adamic rebellion only laid the boackround for God to be able to accomplish He eternal plan to dispense Himself as life into man to make sons of God.I think the closing pages of the Bible symbolically show this ability of God. The New Jerusalem, as a symbol of the completion of His eternal purpose, is constituted with precious stoness created by heat, preasure, and water deep in the earth. Under immense preasure and heat jewels and precious stones are wrought. All the misfortune hurled man’s way by Satan only is used by God to build an eternal city of transformed human beings. They have been redemmed, saved, regenerated, sanctified, transformed, resurrected, confromed, glorified, and built together in love to fulfill God’s eternal purpose.He has caused all things to work together for good to those who love Christ Jesus and have been called according to His purpose (Romans 8:28,29). Man cannot fulfill the purpose of his existence simply by having an endless human life. Man was created to take into himself the life and nature of God. Without the life and nature of God he may be created “very good” and neutral but he was created to have the God living in him and moving and acting in unspeakable harmony and union in a God / Man mingling. We see this in history in the Person of Jesus of Nazareth. He was what God meant by human being. He is the man totally mingled with the Father. He is also God incarnate as a man to be our Savior as well as our Eldest Brother -”For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and through whom are all things, in leading many sons into glory, to make the Author of their salvation perfect through sufferings. For both He who sanctifies and those who are being sanctified are all of One, for which cause He is not ashamed to call us brothers” (Hebrews 2:10,11)The Eldest Brother is the Author of salvation desiring to lead many sons into the glorious expression of the Divine Being. And as such He is not ashamed to call those saved by Him His brothers. God wants to mass produce sons of God in this universe. And this is why man was created. Genesis 3:22 proves that the two sources could not both be partaken of. The tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil were mutually exclusive.Though I had in the past a difficult time proving this absolutely from Genesis alone, I remain commited to this understanding. If God would not have man partake of the tree of life after he had eaten of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, then it seems logical to me that neither would He have had man partake of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil after man’s partaking of the tree of life. Look again at the verse.”And Jehovah God said, Behold the man has become like on of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat and live forever -“ (Gen. 4:22)It appears that the two choices were mutually exclusive. Man cannot partake of both sources. He doesn’t want man to be mixed with both sources.Today, we human beings who have been poisoned by the tree of the knowledge of good and evil can only partake of Christ the tree of life because of His redeeming death which has terminated the old man. His redemption has effectively put to death our old Adamic fallen man. We are positioned in Christ to have the full right to the tree of life.This is only a brief word. Basically, what I see is that from man’s creation he had no reason to die. And death entered into him, as God warned, when he ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. I don’t think Adam ever ate of the tree of life. And it is a mystery to me why he did not. But what I see is that the two sources of existence were mutually exclusive and man was neutral between them.If God was concerned that man would live forever knowing good and evil this must mean that the power of the tree of life would keep the dying man alive after he partook of the tree of the kowledge of good and evil. It was the more powerful source. So I ascertain that had man eaten of the tree of life first then conversely the way to the tree of the knowledge of good and evil would have been excluded from him.Actually, I think that what was suppose to happen was that the serpent was to eliminated from the garden. He was obvioulsy out of place, not belonging, and opposed to God’s words and plan. Okay. That is about the same I think. Adam was joined to Satan. And the Devil has the might of death (Hebrews 2:14) - “He also in like manner partook of the same, that through death He might destroy him who has the might of death, that is, the devil” I neither like the phrase “Gap Theory” anymore. And I do talk about it too much.I should concentrate on helping people to understand the divine life of God. The “Gap” is only important as to furnish some backround about the church’s arch enemy and why he hates man so. From a “strategic” standpoint it is important that the nature of the enemy of God’s eternal purpose be made exposed. He likes to remain shrouded in darkness. But the Bible exposes his past, his characteristics and his stradegy against the church and the kingdom of God. That is really the most important reason to go into the pre-Adamic age. Admittedly, the details are not revealed in the Bible as extensively as our curiosity might prefer. Probably things too horrible or too alien to our capacity to comprehend are related to that age when Satan was God’s deputy authority as the Anointed Cherub over His earth.But the Christafied and Glorified man in God’s full salvation will be Satan’s undoing. And they (the sons of God) shall reign forever and ever (Rev. 22:5) They shall ”reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ” (Rom. 5:17)Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

I agree totally with what you said in your post yet, there are some items that where not clear to me.Although one cannot seperate the the Bible into individual independent parts since all of the Word has a bearing on all other Scripture, we can draw parallels between New Testament and Old Testament verses to explain what each mean in light of one another.You did this quite well likening Christ to the Tree of Life.It isn't necessary to go into detail about what you said since I agree with it all as a Christian. We all know that the Old Testament is the Shadow of the New. What is literal in the Old is shaped into existence in the New Testament in a different light.We understand what the Old was trying to tell us through figures and symbols in the light of the New Testament.Yet the fact remains that if we believe the Word as we have it, to be true and not some figure of speech then it follows that the events happened exactly as described in Genesis.As such there was actually a Garden of Eden, there were two Trees there. What exactly happened to them and why does the bible speak of them in the verses I quoted?You spoke at length on those verses and gave explanations on them, all of which, I actually agree with, yet not once did you actually say that there was (and is) a Tree of Life in the context I put forward.To say that one believes in this Theory yet is incapable of accepting the fact that death was a part of life for Creation before the Fall is a contradiction I find interesting.The modern church has never explained the true context of the two Trees in detail since it confuses people because what is preached is that Jesus is the one that gives us eternal life through faith and repentance.To add the true context of the trees would confuse many. Thus we find contradiction where there is none due to a lack of clarity in the way the church communicates its interpretation of these events. (Shortcuts are bad in the Long run.)One cannot stick their head in a box and not see the evidence of this fact even if you don't want to bring science into the thread.The most we can say about Adam and Eves' immortality is what the Bible actually states about it in Genesis itself and that I've already written down in my previous post. They were immortal because of the Tree of Life. Whether we like it or not, that is what Genesis says, loud and quite clearly.

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We are the sum of all that is, and has been. We will be the sum of our choices.