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Author Topic:   Intelligent Design explains many follies
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3911 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 31 of 302 (290059)
02-24-2006 11:22 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by inkorrekt
02-18-2006 3:07 AM


Re: Evolution unimaginable to ID's
Where is the evidence? When I ask for evidence, all i get is" REad this book" No one has given me any concrete evidence for evolution to occur. Whatever was offered is irrational and boring.
OMG if I didn't like my current sig so much I would totally change it to this. How the heck to you expect anyone ever to take you seriously when you make statements like this?
You want evidence as long as that evidence is not in book form?
What about magazine form?
Or scroll?

Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by inkorrekt, posted 02-18-2006 3:07 AM inkorrekt has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by arachnophilia, posted 02-24-2006 11:58 AM Jazzns has replied
 Message 35 by inkorrekt, posted 02-25-2006 4:01 PM Jazzns has not replied

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 32 of 302 (290071)
02-24-2006 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by Jazzns
02-24-2006 11:22 AM


Re: Evolution unimaginable to ID's
Where is the evidence? When I ask for evidence, all i get is" REad this book" No one has given me any concrete evidence for evolution to occur. Whatever was offered is irrational and boring.
OMG if I didn't like my current sig so much I would totally change it to this. How the heck to you expect anyone ever to take you seriously when you make statements like this?
You want evidence as long as that evidence is not in book form?
What about magazine form?
Or scroll?
the irony of course, aside from the willful ignorance, is that the major creationist sources is *drumroll* a book. the greater irony (or rather tragedy) is in the fact that most creationists seem not to have read it, or understood it.
maybe it's just an aversion to the written word.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Jazzns, posted 02-24-2006 11:22 AM Jazzns has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Jazzns, posted 02-24-2006 12:02 PM arachnophilia has replied

Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3911 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 33 of 302 (290073)
02-24-2006 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by arachnophilia
02-24-2006 11:58 AM


Re: Evolution unimaginable to ID's
Maybe then the solution to creationism is not teaching more science but rather pushing reading initiatives with a focus on comprehension.

Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by arachnophilia, posted 02-24-2006 11:58 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by arachnophilia, posted 02-24-2006 12:06 PM Jazzns has not replied

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 34 of 302 (290076)
02-24-2006 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Jazzns
02-24-2006 12:02 PM


Re: Evolution unimaginable to ID's
Maybe then the solution to creationism is not teaching more science but rather pushing reading initiatives with a focus on comprehension.
maybe. i'll go a step further, and a little more edgy. i say the required instructional text be the bible. a good study of the bible as literature tends to cause problems for creationism (and faith in general, sometimes).


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by inkorrekt, posted 02-25-2006 4:02 PM arachnophilia has replied

inkorrekt
Member (Idle past 6081 days)
Posts: 382
From: Westminster,CO, USA
Joined: 02-04-2006


Message 35 of 302 (290404)
02-25-2006 4:01 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Jazzns
02-24-2006 11:22 AM


Re: Evolution unimaginable to ID's
WE have a problem here.No one gave me any evidence. But, instead criticize the form or even the messenger with no message. The form (Scroll, book, etc) does not matter. If you have papyrus rolls, you can post them if you can.OR Whatever form you have the information on please post. I am curious. I am seeking information, whatever it is. I am asking for logical, rational and Scientific evidence. If you do not have, please admit it. Thank you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Jazzns, posted 02-24-2006 11:22 AM Jazzns has not replied

inkorrekt
Member (Idle past 6081 days)
Posts: 382
From: Westminster,CO, USA
Joined: 02-04-2006


Message 36 of 302 (290405)
02-25-2006 4:02 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by arachnophilia
02-24-2006 12:06 PM


Re: Evolution unimaginable to ID's
How about Torah? May be this will be better than the Bible!!!!!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by arachnophilia, posted 02-24-2006 12:06 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
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inkorrekt
Member (Idle past 6081 days)
Posts: 382
From: Westminster,CO, USA
Joined: 02-04-2006


Message 37 of 302 (290406)
02-25-2006 4:08 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Gary
02-17-2006 1:58 AM


Evolutionary algorithms
Evolutionary algorithms!!! are excellent tools. Were they not written by an Intelligent Designer? Millions of mutations have been carried out on Drosophila Melanogaster. No single useful mutant has been found. How do you justify your statement that mutations have occured? After all mutations can be easily demonstrated.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Gary, posted 02-17-2006 1:58 AM Gary has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Gary, posted 02-25-2006 8:32 PM inkorrekt has replied
 Message 42 by crashfrog, posted 02-25-2006 9:18 PM inkorrekt has not replied

inkorrekt
Member (Idle past 6081 days)
Posts: 382
From: Westminster,CO, USA
Joined: 02-04-2006


Message 38 of 302 (290449)
02-25-2006 6:44 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by crashfrog
02-04-2006 8:36 PM


Genetic algorithm
Does it not require an intelligent designer to write the genetic algorithm?

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Replies to this message:
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 39 of 302 (290453)
02-25-2006 7:03 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by inkorrekt
02-25-2006 4:02 PM


Re: Evolution unimaginable to ID's
How about Torah? May be this will be better than the Bible!!!!!
yeah, see, case in point.
the torah / chumash / penteteuch is the first five books of the bible, the so-called "books of moses." as for discouraging religion? yes, it would be better than the bible as a whole. but no, i was advocating the WHOLE thing, including all of the prophets and the new testament.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by inkorrekt, posted 02-25-2006 4:02 PM inkorrekt has not replied

Gary
Inactive Member


Message 40 of 302 (290477)
02-25-2006 8:32 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by inkorrekt
02-25-2006 4:08 PM


Re: Evolutionary algorithms
You have to define what a "useful mutant" is. Maybe a useful mutation could be something that increases an organism's fitness, that is, its ability to make more viable offspring. What could change in a fruit fly to make it reproduce more effectively?
If a fruit fly lives in a lab, and gains an easily detectable mutation that other flies lack, maybe a scientist will pick out that fly and breed more of them. Wouldn't this be an example of a beneficial mutation, as the mutant fly would have many more offspring than other flies, and these flies would be carrying their ancestor's mutation? The ancestor mutant fly would effectively have a higher fitness, simply because it did something that is useful to a human.
Useful mutants have been found. Have you ever heard about the bacteria that "learned" how to break down nylon? That seems like a beneficial mutation to me. It was beneficial enough that bacteria with that ability showed up in waste water from a nylon factory. That evolutionary event has the unique distinction of being replicated in the lab.
This message has been edited by Gary, 02-25-2006 08:33 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by inkorrekt, posted 02-25-2006 4:08 PM inkorrekt has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by inkorrekt, posted 02-27-2006 5:10 PM Gary has replied

Gary
Inactive Member


Message 41 of 302 (290479)
02-25-2006 8:38 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by inkorrekt
02-25-2006 6:44 PM


Re: Genetic algorithm
inkorrekt writes:
Does it not require an intelligent designer to write the genetic algorithm?
Isn't this arguement a bit like claiming the words in a book came about on their own, while the book itself, and its binding and paper and everything, was designed?
The evolutionary software is simply an environment in which the programs to be tested are allowed to exist. There needs to be some sort of place for them to exist. With living things however, I don't see why an intelligent designer would have to design something like mud or seawater or whatever life originated in.
This message has been edited by Gary, 02-25-2006 08:39 PM

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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 42 of 302 (290484)
02-25-2006 9:18 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by inkorrekt
02-25-2006 4:08 PM


Re: Evolutionary algorithms
Millions of mutations have been carried out on Drosophila Melanogaster. No single useful mutant has been found.
Well, that's certainly not true. A friend of mine rears lizards using a useful D. melanogaster mutant; they're larger (and therefore meatier) and also wingless. An excellent source of food for her lizard colony.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by inkorrekt, posted 02-25-2006 4:08 PM inkorrekt has not replied

inkorrekt
Member (Idle past 6081 days)
Posts: 382
From: Westminster,CO, USA
Joined: 02-04-2006


Message 43 of 302 (290929)
02-27-2006 5:10 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Gary
02-25-2006 8:32 PM


Re: Evolutionary algorithms
Right on. There are bacteria that will degrade petroleum products. This is an example of adaptation to the environment. I am not sure if they were the products of mutation or they have been here and we identified them only now. For example, in our liver, the enzyme systems that degrade the toxic chemicals like herbicides, pesticides are already present. They did not adapt.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Gary, posted 02-25-2006 8:32 PM Gary has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by Gary, posted 02-27-2006 5:30 PM inkorrekt has replied
 Message 45 by crashfrog, posted 02-27-2006 5:30 PM inkorrekt has not replied

Gary
Inactive Member


Message 44 of 302 (290933)
02-27-2006 5:30 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by inkorrekt
02-27-2006 5:10 PM


Re: Evolutionary algorithms
Nylon contains a type of bond not present in any known biological system. Do these herbicides also contain bonds not found anywhere else? Is the human body actually breaking them down, or are they simply stored in fatty tissue, or excreted by the kidneys?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by inkorrekt, posted 02-27-2006 5:10 PM inkorrekt has replied

Replies to this message:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 45 of 302 (290934)
02-27-2006 5:30 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by inkorrekt
02-27-2006 5:10 PM


Re: Evolutionary algorithms
For example, in our liver, the enzyme systems that degrade the toxic chemicals like herbicides, pesticides are already present. They did not adapt.
Well, they did, millions of years ago, when plants first began synthesizing these compounds.
Almost all of the pesticides in use are purified versions of chemicals plants developed millions of years ago, or chemical analogs of those chemicals.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by inkorrekt, posted 02-27-2006 5:10 PM inkorrekt has not replied

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