Intelligent Design and Bible Codes

the evidence is compelling. right up until you see the evidence against it.

The problem with this evidence is that it's being presented without any sort of context.If we went to Vegas and wrote down the numbers generated by a roulette table for 10 hours then made a grid out of them, we could easily find the dates of presidental assassinations, the signing of the magna carta, etc.Does this mean that those events were part of a predetermined pattern which also governs that particular roulette wheel?No. It means that given a suffeciently large set of random numbers (or in the case of Bible codes sylables) you can form unintentional associations.The proof of this is eligently displayed in the Moby Dick Codes demonstration.

seriously, i'll keep posting this link here. have a look at brendan mckay's torah codes page. this is my favourite example:

quote:

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It is not really necessary to answer that claim, since nobody has established that the Bible contains more than what can be expected by chance alone. Neverthless, it is worth noting that if anyone really wanted to encode "secret messages" they would find it quite easy. In fact, with a little practice, it is possible to do vastly better than anything ever discovered in the Bible.

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In January 1998, I sent the following example to the codes mailing list TCODE:

My aim in writing an ELS example for TCODE is simple. You say it is very hard, but I know that it isn't. To encode arbitrary phrases in text, put all those phrases in first then write the rest of the text around them. Language is loose in structure, allowing plenty of alternative forms to make a suitable passage from.

The interesting thing about the passage above (written by hand during a short plane flight) is that if you start at the first letter and use skip 14 you find "Mary had a little lamb". Check for yourself

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Encoding messages is EASY

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check the page for the proof. the reason it's my favourite example? well, there's a few. partially that it's minimal skip is far, far smaller than any the bible codes use. but mostly because it's actually a code: it encodes a complete message in the form of a sentance. it's not a jumble of random cross-words like "mary" "lamb" and "little" that we are left to interpret however we want. we can't read it any other way than the way it's presented.

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I have never heard this till now. I must state that you are wrong. Famous historians and archeologists have provided all the evidence to demonstrate that all the events, places, and people described in the Bible were real. They were contemporary historians who were not even believers. They are even finding evidence for Noah's ark. Did you know that there were predictions in the old testament written several hundreds of years before the events occured. There are 66 prophecies concerning the birth, life, ministry, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. They all came true later.I know a Scientist from the defence who wanted an award so, asked the statistician to "Retromanufcture RAW DATA".He did. I do not know if he ever got any award. I am now challenging you to examine all the evidence before you jump to any conclusion.Here is something else for you. Sanskrit is considered to a one of the oldest languages. 5000 years ago, A Great sacrifice with 13 characteristics was described in Sanskrit. You will be surprised that Hindus have 330 million Gods. None of them fulfilled these. On the other hand, they were all perfectly fulfilled through Jesus Christ who came 3000 years later. Is this arare coincidence or real prediction?Yes, I have read the Book, "Bible Code". It is a fascinating book. Examining all the information, one is compelled to believe the work.Though it is very compelling and convincing, I am not giving too much of emphasis to this. Whatever will happen will happen. Well, the book sold very well. The author must have made lot of money.

Can you show us who debunked and how it was done? Thank you.

I believe Miller gave a brief debunking the Dover trial, check the transcripts.

Dr. Dembski is a very well established Molecular biologist. No one can question his credentials. He happens to be a christian. Everything he has written makes lot of sense. Being a Biochemist myself, I am able to appreciate all that he writes. He cannot be challenged at all. If anyone claimed to have debunked Dr. Dembski, he may not know anything at all. I would recommend the following books to those who think about debunking.Darwin on Trial, Darwin'w black Box and Reason(Dr.Philip Johnson) If after having read all these, if anyone will still consider debunking, then something is wrong.

Where are you getting this? Are you making it up as you go along? Are you confused between Dembski and Behe?As far as I know, Dembski's degrees are in mathematics and philosophy.

It can be found here

Thanks, Modulous. I had forgotten his degree in theology.

i don't know where you get this idea. we can't even find evidence for king david (KING DAVID!), let alone some of the minor characters and events described. we have one piece of rock that hints he might have been a real person, as it lists someone as being "ben david." did you know that nostradamus and wingdings predicted 9/11? reading something into a prophecy in hindsight can be all too easy -- and that's what's being done with the bible codes. the test is to make a prediction before. a specific prediction, not a vague one subject to interpretation. and then wait and see if it happens.but some of the bible code cranks are now saying that the codes contain many different predictions, and we only find which one was right AFTER. wonder why. 330 million gods? is that one per hindu? where do you get this stuff? then frankly, you are a sucker. great "predictions" can be made in a similar fashion in ANY work of significant length. mckay likes to make them using moby dick. he's found some great stuff about jesus and princess di in there.

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Perhaps my sojourn in the newsgroups has left me paranoid but I've got to ask. Are you trolling us? You've been having us on, right?lfen

Ifen, do not get me wrong. I strongly believe in the Bible. All my belief is based on Bible as it is the word of God. As far as the Bible code is concerned, it is very compelling. Do not get carried away by what anyone says or writes. May God give you the power to discern right from Wrong and I am sure you will make it. Do not feel lost in this forum. This is an excellent place to sharpen our ideas. However, you know that not eveyone in this forum is a bible believing christian. Besides, Jews do not believe in Torah either. God knows what they believe. As Paul writes to Timothy, I say that you seek God for wisdom and stand firm on your faith and belief.People have believed in prophecies and they even sold their properties to wait for the Lord to appear. I hope you will not do this. Whatever will happen will happen.

maybe to you, but not to those of those who actually bother to read the rebuttals. ...do you even know what you're talking about?

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(this should have been nipped when it started back at post 16 --- nipped now) AdminNosyBy whom? I got mixed up with Dembski and Behe. Have you looked at the tiny red blood cell even in a light microscope? I guess not. It is a small marvellous factory in itself. The iron pigment hemoblobin can complex with oxygen and then release the gas to the tisues. Besides this, it also carries very useful metabolites like glucose to very critical parts of the body like brain. No one can question his concept "IRREDUCIBLE COMPLEXITY" if that person is a biologist. You see this everywhere. When you say he was debunked, you need to give specific grounds why he was debunked and by whom. He is a good biochemist and he has very good credentials. To get any paper published in the Proceedings of National Academy of Sciences is not a joke. But, it is a great accomplishment.This message has been edited by AdminNosy, 02-27-2006 04:47 PM