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Author Topic:   Laws of Attraction: The seduction of Evolutionary Psychology?
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5840 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 1 of 102 (290012)
02-24-2006 8:04 AM


Evolutionary Psychology continues to pop up in various threads regarding human behavior. This is particularly true for explanations of human sexuality, or attraction.
These explanations are not usually supported with evidence from science, or (rarely) when papers are mentioned, that a critical examination of their contents take place. And yet these explanations are treated by posters as if acceptable or accepted by both evolutionary theorists and psychologists alike... despite conflicting evidence presented on this matter.
Is Evo Psych truly a scientific field, with its conclusions accepted by members within the communities it purports to cross over? This thread is meant as a "catch-all" thread to examine Evo Psych in a sober manner, using its actual products, open for critical analysis.
Posters who support Evo Psych should present the best evidence for their claims from this field. I promise to only address the studies or articles presented, as well as the factual or logical claims made in support of the field. I will not answer posts containing derogatory personal statements about myself or others not supporting Evo Psych.
As a short synopsis of my own position: Evolutionary Psychology is a seductive theory which ultimately fails to be a science as it is currently practiced, and its conclusions are speculative at best, sophistry at worst.
It is based on a plausible or sound concept, that mental states or behaviors may have genetic components which have been driven by evolutionary pressures. The problem is in its methodology as well as its purported accuracy for explanation of human behavior.
The methodology appears to consist of a deductive procedure starting with the plausible theory stated above, followed by positing two correlated issues which could be argued would result in a selection for observed behavior if they were in fact connected. Unfortunately two correlations do not mean connection or causation, but this point is left unaddressed by EP adherents.
At the same time counter evidence is summarily dismissed or downplayed in light of the correlations. Unfortunately that is a circular logic, also unaddressed by EP adherents.
I am not arguing that psychological states or behaviors cannot or do not have an organic or physical nature connected to the brain, that some may be unconscious and hardwired to the human brain based on genes, and that some may have been driven by evolutionary pressures.
I am arguing that we do not have any solid evidence that most of our behaviors are hardwired, genetic, and evolutionarily selected. I am also arguing that highly particular psychological behaviors have not been accurately identified with actual evolutionary pressures that might have formed them. Finally, I am arguing that the field of EP has ignored the fact that evolution has created an organ which is capable of adapting to situations within its lifetime and so voids its methodology of correlation study which can be confounded by other nonevolutionary factors.
If one would like to see a specific critique of an EP paper by myself, rather than submit one of your own:
The role of body weight, waist-to-hip ratio, and breast size in judgments of female attractiveness, Sex Roles: A Journal of Research, August, 1998 by Adrian Furnham, Melanie Dias, Alastair McClelland
My analysis of this paper may be found via this link. You can answer my critique within this thread.
Here is a link to my critique of another paper on EP, though admittedly it is more or less pointing out that the paper agrees with my critique of popular EP references.
This is meant for the Is It Science thread.
This message has been edited by holmes, 02-24-2006 02:06 PM

holmes
"What you need is sustained outrage...there's far too much unthinking respect given to authority." (M.Ivins)

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by AdminPhat, posted 02-24-2006 8:17 AM Silent H has not replied
 Message 4 by Phat, posted 02-24-2006 9:07 AM Silent H has replied
 Message 5 by crashfrog, posted 02-24-2006 10:02 AM Silent H has replied
 Message 6 by Clark, posted 02-24-2006 10:03 AM Silent H has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5840 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 7 of 102 (290053)
02-24-2006 10:33 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Phat
02-24-2006 9:07 AM


Re: What is evolutionary Psychology?
What do the proponents of Evolutionary Psychology assert about their field of study? Why do they believe that it IS Science?
That's a good question to start with I suppose, so that we can set the ground for specific evidence and studies to be produced in support of it. Here is a link to a Wiki article on EP, which starts with a decent overview of its tenets and ends with a description of criticisms it faces, including why some consider it wholly a pseudoscience. The following excerpts come from the Wiki entry...
Evolutionary psychology... proposes psychology can be better understood in light of evolution. Though applicable to any organism with a nervous system, most EP research focuses on humans.
Specifically, EP proposes the brain comprises many functional mechanisms, called psychological adaptations or evolved psychological mechanisms (EPMs), that evolved by natural selection. Uncontroversial examples of EPMs include vision, hearing, memory, and motor control. More controversial examples include incest avoidance mechanisms, cheater detection mechanisms, and sex-specific mating preferences, mating strategies, and spatial cognition. Most evolutionary psychologists argue that EPMs are universal in a species, excepting those specific to sex or age.
...The term evolutionary psychology was probably coined by Ghiselin in his 1973 article in Science. Jerome Barkow, Leda Cosmides and John Tooby popularized the term in their highly influential 1992 book The Adapted Mind: Evolutionary Psychology and The Generation of Culture. Evolutionary psychology has been applied to the study of many fields, including economics, aggression, law, psychiatry, politics, literature, and sex.
From the above one can see how elements of EP are not necessarily controversial, while other elements are. The field itself is divided about the legitimacy of certain elements. Those involved with the more controversial elements are (unfortunately) the more vocal and active in promotion of their position to the public via publication in popular media.
Here is more description of what EP is based on...
Evolutionary psychology is based on the belief that, just like hearts, lungs, livers, kidneys, and immune systems, cognition has functional structure that has a genetic basis, and therefore has evolved by natural selection. Like other organs and tissues, this functional structure should be universally shared amongst a species, and should solve important problems of survival and reproduction. Evolutionary psychologists seek to understand psychological mechanisms by understanding the survival and reproductive functions they might have served over the course of evolutionary history.
That is an interesting concept and I am not adverse to that possibility or attempts at trying to find it using credible scientific methods. Here is a description of what is necessary for an adequate understanding, and where popular EP starts falling apart by taking short cuts...
In order to understand the design and function of any mechanism, it is necessary to correctly identify the 'environment' the mechanism is intended to interact with. It would be difficult to understand the design of a pipe wrench, for example, without understanding the properties of pipes and pipe-fittings. This argument also applies to evolved mechanisms in the living world. It would be difficult, if not impossible, to understand the function of the lungs without understanding the properties of a gaseous oxygen atmosphere, or to understand the immune system without understanding the properties of pathogens. The environment that a mechanism evolved to interact with is termed the EEA of that mechanism.
EP argues that in order to understand an evolved psychological mechanism, one must similarly understand the properties of the environment that the psychological mechanism evolved to interact with.
Given the vast history our brains would have had to develop within, the forms our ancestors took, as well as the environments they faced, EPers insisting they can isolate behavioral emergence to recent strictly human environmental conditions to solve specifically human issues (some from an obvious western cultural standpoint) begins to raise my eyebrows.

holmes
"What you need is sustained outrage...there's far too much unthinking respect given to authority." (M.Ivins)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Phat, posted 02-24-2006 9:07 AM Phat has not replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5840 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 8 of 102 (290055)
02-24-2006 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by crashfrog
02-24-2006 10:02 AM


My position is based on a credible understanding of the field, as well as what criticisms exist about it. This can be seen within one of the posts I linked to in the OP (which discusses an EP proponent criticizing aspects of the field) as well as the Wiki link I have provided in post 7.
If you do not agree with what I have said, then the proper reaction is to show what EP as a field proposes, and studies which support its conclusions. That is simple enough and does not require emotional outbursts and personal attacks.
Your post is an example of what I will not be responding to. If you cannot raise the quality of your participation then don't post.
This message has been edited by holmes, 02-24-2006 05:05 PM

holmes
"What you need is sustained outrage...there's far too much unthinking respect given to authority." (M.Ivins)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by crashfrog, posted 02-24-2006 10:02 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by crashfrog, posted 02-24-2006 1:24 PM Silent H has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5840 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 9 of 102 (290063)
02-24-2006 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Clark
02-24-2006 10:03 AM


Re: Violence,Testosterone, and Evolution
Sounds pretty scientific to me. So if male sexual behavior is regulated by hormones which in turn are created by genes, then I think it is safe to say evolutionary processes act on them.
Thanks for your post. This does not actually address the focus of my thread. I agree that hormones can regulate behavior, that genes control hormone production, and that evolutionary processes shaped those genes.
The question is what evidence we have regarding specific behaviors being selected for in order to solve specific external environmental problems. And further what methodologies are appropriate for such investigations.
The studies you have posted do not actually address specific behaviors such as desiring a particular waste to hip ratio, nor do they posit specific problems that hormones are solving beyond perhaps attempts to mate. Perhaps more importantly they are focused on specific physical characteristics which are measurable and suggest comparisons to physical characteristics within other species related to our ancestors.
It is my opinion that proper EP studies are possible the more physical the focus, immediate the result of the physical trait, and comparison to such traits in ancestral-type species to peg down where and when the trait may have evolved.

holmes
"What you need is sustained outrage...there's far too much unthinking respect given to authority." (M.Ivins)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Clark, posted 02-24-2006 10:03 AM Clark has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by crashfrog, posted 02-24-2006 1:30 PM Silent H has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5840 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 12 of 102 (290115)
02-24-2006 1:34 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by crashfrog
02-24-2006 1:24 PM


Do you believe that a counterexample disproves correlation?
No, a counterexample does not inherently disprove anything. A specific counterexample may disprove an assertion that a correlation represents a causative relation, but it really depends on the case.

holmes
"What you need is sustained outrage...there's far too much unthinking respect given to authority." (M.Ivins)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by crashfrog, posted 02-24-2006 1:24 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by crashfrog, posted 02-24-2006 1:40 PM Silent H has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5840 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 14 of 102 (290120)
02-24-2006 2:11 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by crashfrog
02-24-2006 1:30 PM


Re: Violence,Testosterone, and Evolution
I don't see how the first doesn't answer the second.
The studies suggested that hormones effect male sexuality (and anger). Thus there is a direct chemical connection between level of a specific hormone and exhibition of sexual desire or activity. Evolutionary processes resulted in a state where certain hormones are used to regulate (control) sexual impulses. And evolutionary pressure may have dictated levels of hormonal production we see today (or maybe the current level was simply not deselected). This is description of a measurable physical process connected directly to emotional states and behavior, with no assignment to a specific environmental solution or suggestion of when it was produced. The best suggestion was that it existed within similar primates, though with further study it could be pushed back.
Frankly these studies weren't even EP in nature, but it was clear what they suggest regarding evolution and sexual arousal.
These studies differ from the more controversial EP studies such as the one I presented as an example in my OP. In that case it did not suggest any measurable physical process within the body, only linking a mildly higher instance of choosing images with specific WHR's (which is assumed to reflect actual choice in partner), to indicators of health in women based on similar WHR's. Thus choosing such a woman as a partner would increase chance of mating success. That is linking a specific behavior to solving a specific external environmental issue, I might add without ever explaining why the behavior must have been decided when we were humans looking like we do now and affected the same way.
I don't understand why you think evolutionary psychology is the only evolutionary field that has to nail down the exact environment and time period that prompted these adaptations in order to be a science.
If you posit as part of your hypothesis that something occured at a specific time, there would have to be evidence for this. EP theorists often compare their field to physiology development theorists, but establishing boundaries of where a physiological feature might have occurred depends on comparisons to features within other species in order to identify where it might have come about and what environmental factor might have been important.
That said, if there are any other evolutionary fields making claims in a similar manner or based on similar methodology I would find them equally questionable, and my guess is they would be considered questionable by many within evolutionary theory. I should say I have seen some studies (or popular programs discussing theories) which I did not find sound science.
But I don't want to get sidetracked into discussing them or general questions regarding EP. I think the point will be more clearly demonstrated by dealing with actual studies from EP.

holmes
"What you need is sustained outrage...there's far too much unthinking respect given to authority." (M.Ivins)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by crashfrog, posted 02-24-2006 1:30 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by crashfrog, posted 02-24-2006 2:17 PM Silent H has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5840 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 16 of 102 (290126)
02-24-2006 2:18 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by crashfrog
02-24-2006 1:40 PM


How would it do that, except in the simplest possible case?
You just answered your own question. I said may, not under all conditions. I am done discussing word choices and general logic.
If you have an EP study which you believe is a representation of modern scientific research delivering a solid conclusion regarding human behavior, explaining how a specific behavior is genetically determined, and what that mutation was reinforced to solve, please cite it.

holmes
"What you need is sustained outrage...there's far too much unthinking respect given to authority." (M.Ivins)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by crashfrog, posted 02-24-2006 1:40 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by crashfrog, posted 02-24-2006 2:21 PM Silent H has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5840 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 18 of 102 (290136)
02-24-2006 2:39 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by crashfrog
02-24-2006 2:17 PM


Re: Violence,Testosterone, and Evolution
The origin of human genes is the same as the origin of the genes of all organisms - evolution. It's hardly necessary to provide a speculation about what environment was present that our genes had to adapt to;
I agree with the above statement, but that stands in contrast to EP which specifically claims to draw a connection between a behavior and an environmental factor. By creating such a hypothesis they bring it upon themselves to present evidence for that connection.
we know that the origin of the content of our genes is evolution, which would entail adaptation to our environment - whatever it may be.
Well that's not quite true. Some genes may exist, creating a trait, which are neutral toward environment and so not a result of adaptation to an environment. I might add that not all behaviors need to be hardwired into our brain (even as a choice among many others), but based on the nature of our brain (which adapts to our immediate environments) may have no connection to species evolutionary pressures at all.
I don't see where that has been posited.
If one says that whr selection is related to health estimation in humans, then one has inherently posited that whr selection as a behavior was selected for while humans were within this form, and not sometime earlier in their ancestry.
we know that the origins of our genes is adaptation to environment regardless of the fact that we're not certain what that environment may have entailed.
Our genes are products of mutation and selection. This is agreed. That certain behaviors are genetically coded as a result of evolutionary pressures for specific situations is not. If you do not understand that EP posits the latter, I do not know what to say, I have provided a link to a Wiki article on what EP is.
I am discussing THAT definition of EP, which is directly related to writings of people who claim to represent EP.
If you have a paper to present which does not advance the type of theory I outlined then I will deal with it. In fact I am really only interested in dealing with actual evidence/studies within this thread regarding genetic formation of specific human behavior.

holmes
"What you need is sustained outrage...there's far too much unthinking respect given to authority." (M.Ivins)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by crashfrog, posted 02-24-2006 2:17 PM crashfrog has replied

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Silent H
Member (Idle past 5840 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 20 of 102 (290143)
02-24-2006 2:53 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by crashfrog
02-24-2006 2:21 PM


It's sufficient to show that a given behavior has a genetic influence, because we know that adaptations to environment are the origin of our genes.
I have suggested that mere correlation is not sufficient to indicate a genetic influence.
Human beings are special? We're the only organisms ever whose genes are not the result of adaptation to circumstance?
That is not my position, and I have corrected you on this already.
I'm willing to cite research indicating that human mate choice is not random, but influenced by purely genetic concerns under the scope of human consciousness
Then cite it.
(which was my original contention that prompted this topic)
Your contention did not "prompt" this topic. My past threads had nothing to do with you, and the thread which prompted this specific thread contained more than just your posts. Please let's just keep this factual regarding studies.
I need to know that I'm not going to spend 200 posts rebutting nonsense objections, correcting your strawmen, and deflecting ad hominem.
Either post a study or don't. This site is filled with more than 200 posts and reposts and explanations of studies to people that may not understand. I'm not sure what the hangup is here. If your study is proper, then what difference will my invalid criticisms make?
I will once again state that the objections I have raised, have been raised by professionals in these fields, including some of the originators of EP who have not been happy with the direction popular EP has taken. Some of the positions you appear to be claiming are strawmen as stated explicitly by members of EP.
If you are done arguing the man, please argue your position using evidence from the field of EP.

holmes
"What you need is sustained outrage...there's far too much unthinking respect given to authority." (M.Ivins)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by crashfrog, posted 02-24-2006 2:21 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by crashfrog, posted 02-24-2006 4:53 PM Silent H has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5840 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 21 of 102 (290146)
02-24-2006 3:06 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by melatonin
02-24-2006 2:48 PM


Hello M, I was actually hoping you'd show up. I was interested in your take on EP, and was thinking of asking you specifically to join the thread.
here's an EP study which I find interesting and may answer an important question - if schizophrenia is genetic and reduces evol. fitness, why does it persist in the population?
I was not intending this thread to be a speed thread, but rather an accurate one so I hope you will excuse me if this reply does not contain my analysis of the study you presented. I will take a look at it carefully and have a reply on it by tomorrow sometime, or Monday at the latest (pretty sure it'll be tomorrow).
I look forward to our discussion.
I might add as a side note on another subject that my gf will be working on a paper regarding dreams as memory consolidation, and would be interested in info on that at some point. I realize you have already posted some on that topic which makes me wonder if you had more. But that's sometime in the future.
It's getting late here and I will get back to you asap, watch for a new reply soon.

holmes
"What you need is sustained outrage...there's far too much unthinking respect given to authority." (M.Ivins)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by melatonin, posted 02-24-2006 2:48 PM melatonin has not replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5840 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 26 of 102 (290267)
02-25-2006 6:10 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by crashfrog
02-24-2006 4:53 PM


If the intent of all this is to criticize speculations by non-biologists about evolutionary origins of behavior being offered as authoritative, I'm in total agreement. And it doesn't escape my notice that I myself, against my better judgement, am guilty of the same thing.
But your OP seemed to be an indictment of the entire field; a criticism of the very idea of offering that humans often behave the way they do because those behaviors connote reproductive success.
I tried to make it clear what I was criticizing in my OP, and more definitively in my answer to Phat's request for info on EP. These statements indicate that there is a miscommunication going on. I'm not sure how I can be more clear, but I will try...
1) I am not indicting the entire field of EP, nor am I in any fashion criticizing the idea that behaviors have an organic component, and that that organic component may have formed via evolutionary pressures due to contributions to reproductive success. I find such concepts plausible and interesting for study.
2) I AM indicting a growing segment of the field of EP, whose conclusions are unfortunately making headway into public rhetoric and reasoning based on media interest and popular publications. Although I am often confronted by nonbiologists touting conclusions, I am equally concerned with the degreed biologists and psychologists who are championing this segment. Their "studies" make up the basis of that segment and if you read their works you will find language strikingly similar to that found in ID literature.
3) This OP is meant to challenge assumptions regarding what is and can be known about human behavior as connected to evolutionary pressures, by specifically looking at the studies (and yes they are published in peer-reviewed journals to my amazement) and investigating how they hold up to modern scientific methodology. Indeed my main focus of disagreement is not on what they conclude, but the methods used to draw their conclusions.
4) You are correct that there are other speculative fields of science, but most maintain they are theorists with no evidence, which is unlike the EP crowd I am discussing. And unlike string theorists who are dealing with purely mechanical systems, popular EP theorists ignore and dismiss that the brain is adaptive to present circumstances and environments, including cultural pressures, and treat it as purely mechanical between behavior and physical evolutionary success.
5) There are many people in both Evolutionary Biology and Psychology who are critical of this movement due to its flawed methods and its popular though wholly speculative "conclusions" which have become accepted as talking points by the masses, as we saw in the other thread. Stephen J Gould, for example, was an incredibly vocal opponent. I have taken some of my criticisms from him, as I have read the dismissives from Pinker which did not satisfactorily answer Gould's points.
I think the best way to go about this review is to produce papers on specific behaviors so everyone can see the evidence we are discussing. I have already produced one, with criticisms. Others are welcome, and you will see this later today when I respond to Melatonin's citation (I've read it and I'll be writing my analysis today).

holmes
"What you need is sustained outrage...there's far too much unthinking respect given to authority." (M.Ivins)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by crashfrog, posted 02-24-2006 4:53 PM crashfrog has replied

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 Message 27 by crashfrog, posted 02-25-2006 11:21 AM Silent H has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5840 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 31 of 102 (290472)
02-25-2006 7:52 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by melatonin
02-24-2006 2:48 PM


schizotypy study
I thought you'd like this study, lol - schizophrenia is largely genetic, schizotypy is associated with schizophrenia, schizotypy is related to creativity, creativity is related to sexual success - therefore sexual success of schizotypy maintains the scizophrenic genes...
Heheheh... yeah this is a nice paper to look at. It isn't as flawed as many EP papers, but that makes it good to show where methodology works and where it doesn't. That reasoning though, yikes. Reminds me eerily of Monty Python's Holy Grail.
I apologize in advance for making minimal quotes from the paper, but it is in pdf and I hate transcribing long sections or mutiple sections. I'll quote sections I believe are necessary and we can mention others in the future as needed.
Okay first for the positives.
1) Unlike many EP papers, this addresses a condition which is shown to have a genetic component. Other papers (such as the whr study) substitute correlation to population for actual evidence of genetics. In this case the genetic component is a predisposition to schiz, it can be seen branching via reproduction in the population, with mediating/provoking effects based on environmental factors.
2) They use a method for measuring schizotypy which is valid so that a (reasonably identified) genetic trait is the actual target for comparison to other variables.
3) They are not exactly seeking why a trait was selected for in humans, but rather given its patently negative effects, why it has not been deselected. There is a difference. A neutral characteristic will arise and remain without any adaptive advantage, but a negative characteristic would (reasonably) be expected to diminish which it appears is not happening.
Now for the problems.
THEORETICAL
1) They do not actually deliver a problem for stability of schiz within populations. The numbers are small (1%) and while they cite evidence full blown schiz can drastically reduce probability of reproduction, this does not pose an "evolutionary puzzle" when they go on to show that genetic predisposition is not synonymous with full blown schiz (it should be noted that later in their paper they reveal it is predominantly one manifestation of schiz which may have the deleterious effects)...
Reduced fitness in sufferers would be expected to lead to the disappearance of the heritable traits predisposing individuals to the condition. The fact that this does not appear to happen has lead many commentators to speculate that there must be other, beneficial effects of the traits, most probably manifest in healthy relatives...
Why would those carrying genes predisposed to schiz have to have beneficial effects, just because those who end up manifesting schiz do not reproduce as much? As long as there was no reproductive bar to those with such predisposition it is possible for schiz total numbers to remain stable. Those predisposed produce a consistent number of offspring, with a consistent minority that do not reproduce (or reproduce less). Given the nature of genes to actual schiz (it is dependent on environmental factors) there would be no reason for it to disappear, only to reach an equilibrium. Indeed given the neutrality (much less the positive traits they argue for within their paper) of schiz dispositive genes, they could easily increase throughout populations, resulting in positive schizophrenic numbers over time.
2) They do not address another, perhaps more obvious, puzzle. Why would %'s remain stable over time and across cultures, when there have been drastic improvements in health care (including mental health) over time and across cultures as well as differences in how artistic creativity is rewarded across cultures? I am personally skeptical of this claim given the relative newness of such testing (and knowledge of schiz) much less its possible testing across all cultures. But I am going to assume their cited studies are correct for now, and point out it poses a problem. Reasonably... evolutionarily... we should see differences.
3) They do not bother to investigate this phenomena further along epidemiological or demographic lines. How is it physically being maintained? By what populations? Instead they ASSUME they are correct that it is healthy schiz-disposed types manifesting some beneficial trait, and ASSUME that it could be based in artistry, in order to jump to a totally separate EP SPECULATION (which itself needs more investigation), and suggest that might provide an answer. In a way they attempt to kill two birds with one study. However that is an error. It is possible for there to be other answers for why schiz-disp gene carriers do not disappear, so finding that creative types might have more reproductive success is an extremely dubious piece of evidence in order to reach a conclusion that it is a likely answer. (One example of another explanation, is that families or groups with schiz-disp genes form reproductive strategies of having more children because some are or will likely become ill.)
METHODOLOGICAL
4) The study was small in scale and completely unicultural. There was no chance of weeding out cultural influences regarding how creativity and artistry in specific is treated within our culture. Within their own results section they mention that...
It is possible that these relationships arise because the specialist artist and poet groups who were recruited, and who are high in unusual experiences... have different lifestyles than the general population.
While the rerun of results within this specific study showed little difference, the point above still stands not just for artistic groups within other cultures but the inherently different lifestyles within other cultures.
5) The study was a self-assessment test. These are problematic in and of themselves, but I will lay that to the side for this discussion. I am only going to point out that "creative" types may very well skew responses, particularly regarding sexual partners or other experiences culturally linked to artists. The same may be said for people who actually have "impulsive non-conformity" issues.
6) The study focused on numbers of partners. While it states that this is a valid measure of mating success (quantity=success) in some studies, that directly contradicts other EP studies which argue longterm monogamy is an evolutionarily driven psych strategy (quality over quantity).
I will leave that inconsistency alone for now to focus on the more important point that sexual partners does NOT equate to children at all, even if potential is theoretically higher. If the issue is actual sustained numbers, potentials to have children are wholly useless for extrapolation. Interestingly they used a major cultural bias within this part of the test. From their methods section...
The questionnaire also provided information on mating success in the form of the following questions: 'Since you were 18, how much of the time...' and 'Since you were 18, how many different partners have you had...?'
Why would they restrict age at all? As long as one is capable of being pregnant or causing pregnancy, and the issue is creating offspring, that is an artificial construct which may skew results of a study. This would particularly be an issue if psych factors associated with schiz could affect when people become sexual active.
ANALYSIS
7) The first thing to note is their analysis regarding number of children...
For number of children, the only significant association with schizotypy was with cognitive disorganization... {it was negatively associated}
Given that their study assumed that number of partners should match reproductive success (they even begin to refer to it AS mating success) the fact that number of children does not correlate to number of partners is problematic. That the results hold essentially a contradictory correlation is devastating. Yet this rather obvious point is never discussed at all! The results of this study in fact challenge the citations they used to make their assumption. Number of partners here did NOT at all correlate with number of children and so such assumptions cannot be made. This alone should have killed the study as being conclusive.
8) In Figure One they show how creativity relates to numbers of partners. On can clearly see that artistic activity alone does not have an effect. Effects are only seen as artists are engaged in "serious" or "professional" artistry. The authors attribute this to a hypothesis that artistic creativity functions as a mating display, with yet another hidden assumption that serious or professional artists are more creative. While that may be true they do not show any analyses to discount, nor do they bother to discuss, the equally viable (and to my mind more obvious) possibility that success or fame is a factor in attracting partners. It certainly cannot be assumed that success and fame are objectively correlated to creative impulse and output. But strangely they appear to have done that very thing within materials and methods...
Obviously, information on quality of the participants' work was not directly available. However, it is assumed that increasingly serious engagement with the activity is generally correlated with increasing quality and visibility of work.
One generally assumes that only the best and brightest will get elected to lead nations in a free democratic state, and the more they spend time in office the better they will get, but that is not the case. I have no idea how that assumption was allowed to pass by any peer review as acceptable. Heck, even if I were to accept quality as correlated to success or fame, what does quality have to do with drive? Unless they are also assuming that artistic passion translates to artistic talents I am at a loss as to what any of this has to do with schiz-disp genetics which can only produce drive.
Here is an example: the Baldwins are all artists. I cannot say which has the greatest drive, nor that the one that has the greatest drive actually has the greatest talent, or the one that has the greatest talent has the greatest fame. The one thing I can be pretty certain of is that an equally talented though unrelated actor may never reach the same level of fame, not to mention access to the same number of sexual partners, as they do because one of them became famous first.
9) Nowhere did I see a discussion of how their results actually exhibit a statistically relevant conclusion that it is creativity as an attractor which keeps schizophrenia stable within a population. What numbers should I have been expecting to see that would disprove their theory because it would not have been enough?
Conclusion...
I think I'll leave it right there for now. It is some of the major problems I see and which characterize pop EP methodology.
What this appears to tell me (at best) is that talented or "busy" artists within Britain have greater numbers of partners. Separately some forms of schizotypy may have some correlation with numbers of partners, but to what degree such that it addresses the initial "puzzle" I have no idea. At worst it calls into question some of their supporting citations as well as ignoring a more obvious conclusion that success alone might be a factor in finding partners, and so confound making statements about creativity from these results.
I apologize if my ending is weak, but I am writing after 1:30am. Hopefully it suffices.

holmes
"What you need is sustained outrage...there's far too much unthinking respect given to authority." (M.Ivins)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by melatonin, posted 02-24-2006 2:48 PM melatonin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by melatonin, posted 02-26-2006 9:55 AM Silent H has replied
 Message 34 by melatonin, posted 02-26-2006 10:12 AM Silent H has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5840 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 32 of 102 (290534)
02-26-2006 7:34 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by melatonin
02-25-2006 2:38 PM


We are an animal, and therefore are affected by the same processes as other species. I don’t feel that EP suggests that genes are the sole determinant of behaviour, just that genes provide a dispostional basis of behaviour
I absolutely agree with this. There are however limitations regarding genes and behaviors which are not existent within other animals. Our brains have a higher analytical ability and may reach organic behaviors due to adaptation to circumstance, rather than having been coded with behaviors to solve any particular evolutionary problem.
Even disposition based on measurable hormonal urges which can be tracked hereditarily, does not inherently suggest that specific behaviors resulting from such urges or how they interact with current environments has any meaning to their continued existence.
Too much is made of neccessity, rather than realizing as long as the behavior is not COUNTERproductive it will remain and can travel throughout communities. Thus there was no PURPOSE for most or any behavior we see to exist, even when common.
These are also heritable and have a neurophysiological basis - HA -serotonin; RD = noradrenaline; NS = dopamine. So we would expect sociopaths to exhibit such physiology - there is data suggesting they do (see Zuckermann, 1989). Researchers also distinguish between ”primary’ (predominately genetics) and ”secondary’ (predominately environment) forms of sociopathy.
I am much more interested in studies that begin by tracking actual genetic/hereditary quality of a behavior, especially cued to a brain physiology. That is where I believe the future of EP lies, and where I am hoping criticism will guide it. There is a paradox posed by the above situation. As long as it is seen that environment plays a part, that inherently suggests that it is OTHER environmental factors which are selecting for a trait, rather than having to posit some "original" or overriding reason.
Tania Singer’s group at UCL have shown that males show less empathy (and even pleasure - schadenfreude) to the suffering of an individual who has ”cheated’ them.
Why could this not be the result of analytical structuring of the brain based almost wholly on dealing with the environment? That is to say the result of creating rules within this culture? I agree that differences in hormonal levels between men and women will influence level of "empathy rules", but that would not suggest hormonal levels were shaped by need/lack of need for empathy in either, or that it had to generate specific outcomes for either sex in behavior. Perhaps this understanding somewhat solves the paradox you noted.
and assessment of comparative neurology would aid in the understanding of human behaviour/evolution of mind.
Not only that but most pop EP theorists don't begin by searching out actual neurological/chemical bases for behavior within humans themselves. The leap from possibility of, to assumption of, based on correlation to population of a behavior.
I would tell her to start with the papers I posted (couple of good reviews there).
Will do and thanks.

holmes
"What you need is sustained outrage...there's far too much unthinking respect given to authority." (M.Ivins)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by melatonin, posted 02-25-2006 2:38 PM melatonin has not replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5840 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 36 of 102 (290669)
02-26-2006 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by crashfrog
02-25-2006 11:21 AM


I'll post a paper that I think is indicative of the sort of research that I think of when I think of evolutionary psychology. Am I wrong to attribute this article to the field of evolutionary psychology?
It is clearly EP. While it is not as wholly controversial as some of the more popEP studies (such as whr, or the "similar looking partners" stuff you suggested in the other thread), it certainly straddles into that territory.
I finished reading it today and before I write an analysis I thought I'd actually like to hear more about what you think this study suggests. Do you believe it is definitive? Highly suggestive? Suggestive? Largely Speculative? Are there any weaknesses that you see in this study, including methodology? If so, what are they?
I would also ask if you understand methodology or statistics so that its discussion makes sense?
Without such knowledge one may be left at the mercy of their more layman styled conclusions, without knowing if what they say they have matches what they actually achieved. I myself was rusty enough with stats that I had to run my understanding past someone else to make sure I was right (thankfully I was), and to understand better some elements they used for determining significance.

holmes
"What you need is sustained outrage...there's far too much unthinking respect given to authority." (M.Ivins)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by crashfrog, posted 02-25-2006 11:21 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by crashfrog, posted 02-26-2006 6:26 PM Silent H has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5840 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 37 of 102 (290676)
02-26-2006 5:46 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Parsimonious_Razor
02-26-2006 3:49 PM


Re: Hey Holmes
Major histocompatibility complex genes, symmetry, and body scent attractiveness in men and women, Thornhill, R; Gangestad, SW; Miller, R; Scheyd, G; McCollough, JK; Franklin, M Source: BEHAVIORAL ECOLOGY; SEP 2003; v.14, no.5, p.668-678
I already have a critique outstanding for you within this thread (an article I believe was recommended by you as an example of a good EP study). I am willing to take on more, but at this point have two others. The one analysis of the study melatonin gave, and the analysis I will write later on crash's citation.
The citation you give is from the same author's as the cite from crash. Being a latter article on a possibility mentioned within the crash cite, my guess is it is follow up research. Would it be okay to start with the earlier article that crash provided?
I'd like to see what you think of their methodology and conclusions of that earlier article, particularly as this relates to the likelihood of evolutionarily driven mechanism of scent pref.
This message has been edited by holmes, 02-26-2006 11:47 PM

holmes
"What you need is sustained outrage...there's far too much unthinking respect given to authority." (M.Ivins)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Parsimonious_Razor, posted 02-26-2006 3:49 PM Parsimonious_Razor has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Parsimonious_Razor, posted 02-26-2006 9:54 PM Silent H has replied

  
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