Judaism - True or False Religion?

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He was exposing the hypocrisy of the intentions behind the actions rather than just the ridiculousness of the actions themselves.

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The actions of a few or the entire rabbinic practice that developed after the last exile?He told the people to do as they say but not as they do. That doesn't sound like they were doing everything wrong.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

Isaiah 7:14 (KJV): Isaiah 7:14 (Jewish Translation from the Hebrew) The NIV, ASV, and a few other "Christian" translations of the Bible agree with the KJV and use "virgin"; the RSV, Catholic JB and NJB, and others use "young woman" or something similar.See Forbidden ("Is Isaiah 7:14 a Messianic Prophecy?") for a more detailed discussion.I tend to agree with the "young woman" reading simply because it fits the context of Isaiah better. The purpose of the young woman having the child was to give a message to King Ahaz about how soon God would kill the Kings of Aram and Israel, and how he would later bring destruction upon Judah. (It all seems a bit complicated to me, but I'm not God, so I don't know all the ins and outs of His reasoning.)

The passage has always been translated "virgin" by the Church through the last two millennia, not to mention that that's what the New Testament itself has for it. Also, the Jewish translators of the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Hebrew scriptures done 300 years before Christ, used "virgin." The word is also translated "virgin" in the Song of Songs and in Genesis referring to Dinah.ABE: The practice of translating it "young woman" is very recent and apparently an accommodation to Jewish rejection of Christian doctrine.This message has been edited by Faith, 02-27-2006 01:10 PM

except for the ones listed in the message you just replied to. curious, that. this is highly arguable at best. both are greek, and not used in the modern virginal sense -- and we've been over this before. Bible Search and Study Tools - Blue Letter Biblenotice that the word is used once in genesis? and not refering to dinah? of the four times it's actually translated "virgin" by the kjv, not a single usage actually demands it. in fact, the hebrews have an expression for virgin: —- lo-yadau 'ish. "not known a man" i'm sure you've heard it used in the bible before. or maybe it could just be that almah really doesn't mean virgin.

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As I pointed out, some RECENT translations have changed it. The term is "PARTHENOS" which designates a virgin, and there are other Greek terms for mere maiden which were not used, and those terms have been translated down the centuries into the word for "virgin" in ALL the other languages.I have no idea what you mean "Both are Greek." So what? "Almah" is the word in question, and it's been translated CONSISTENTLY in these specified places, in ALL languages, even when the Hebrew and Greek texts were both available, to mean "virgin." We've been over and over this. The term "Almah" was translated "virgin" in the particular places that are in question whether you agree with the translation or not. Right, and the thousands of godfearing translators over the last two millennia are just idiots, while only a few moderns have seen through their error.This message has been edited by Faith, 02-27-2006 04:09 PM

is it possible that it's because the older ones are in error?

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Christian apologists nevertheless argue that many first century Jews, including Jewish converts to Christianity, used the Septuagint Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible, which used the word , parthenos, which they say clearly means "virgin". However, the Greek-English Lexicon edited by Henry George Liddell and Robert Scott lists other meanings for the word:

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, parthenos, I. 1. maiden, girl; virgin, opp. gyn, "woman". 2. of unmarried women who are not virgins, Iliad 2.514, etc. 3. Parthenos, h, the Virgin Goddess, as a title of Athena at Athens. 4. the constellation Virgo. II. as adj., maiden, chaste. III. as masc., parthenos, ho, unmarried man, Apocalypse 14.4.

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Even so, "virgin" is the primary meaning, which is where we derive words such as parthenogenesis, meaning when a female produces offspring without being fertilized by a male.

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There is also archaeological evidence that Jewish speakers of Greek used the word "parthenos" elastically; Jewish catacombs in Rome identify married men and women as "virgins," and some have suggested that in this case the word was used to call attention to the fact that the deceased was someone's first spouse. Nevertheless, it remains true that Jews stopped using the more explicit Septuagint translation as Christianity spread, and that post-Christian Jewish translations into Greek use , neanis, meaning "young woman", rather than parthenos. Some scholars claim that the Septuagint does not use parthenos very precisely, as it translates at least three different Hebrew words by it: bethulah, "maiden/virgin"; `almah, "maiden/virgin"; and , na`arah, "maiden, young woman, servant". The meaning of the word parthenos in the Septuagint is sometimes expanded in a way not seen in Isaiah. This would assume that the 9th century AD Hebrew manuscripts we have today are identical to the manuscripts from which the Septuagint was translated 1,000 years earlier, which may or may not be the case.

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Genesis 24:16 And the damsel [parthenos ] was very fair to look upon, a virgin [parthenos ], neither had any man known her: and she went down to the well, and filled her pitcher, and came up.

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Judges 21:12 And they found among the inhabitants of Jabeshgilead four hundred young virgins [parthenous ], that had known no man by lying with any male: and they brought them unto the camp to Shiloh, which is in the land of Canaan.

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Virgin birth - Wikipedia

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parthenos does not clearly designate virgin. almah is not the hebrew word for virgin. sorry. the septuagint and the new testament are both greek. not hebrew. the connotations don't always carry over well between languages. what part of "four out of seven uses of the word are not 'virgin'" do you not comprehend? how is that consistent? had it been "virgin" in ever case, or even the majority of cases, then maybe you could say "consistent." but when it's rendered as something else more times than not -- AND there's another hebrew word that specifically means virgin -- where do you have a case?almah means "young woman" and "bethulah" means virgin. furthermore, when they want to specifically mention VIRGINITY, they say that she has "not known a man." why not such reference in isaiah? why the ambiguous word, instead of the specific? dogma and tradition are powerful things. why does nearly every bible translations say moses parted the red sea?This message has been edited by arachnophilia, 02-27-2006 04:27 PM

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The term Parthenos does not always denote a virgin. In Genesis 34:2, Dinah was raped by Shechem, yet in Genesis 34:3, the septugaint refered to Dinah as 'parthenos'.That shows that you are incorrect in saying Parthenos always means virgin.And, if you look at the Jewish Translations, there is not one place where ALmah is translated from the Hebrew into the English as 'Virgin'. As a matter of fact, the use of the term 'virgin' is very inapproprate
in some of those translations (such as in the Song of Solomon, when it talks about the way of a man with a young woman... this is talking intercourse here, not virginity)This message has been edited by ramoss, 02-27-2006 05:45 PM

Yes, and all the EXCELLENT translators of the Greek into other languages translated THAT word "virgin" in their own language. Perhaps it is because Dinah was RAPED, she was not a SLUT, which is what NOT calling her a virgin at that point might have implied. Who knows, but you aren't a translator and neither am I. I trust the experts. You should too isntead of having the arrogance to put your own ruminations over their expertise. I didn't say it "always" means "virgin." I said it is the Greek word that explicitly specifically DOES mean "virgin" however, however, and I also said that it was TRANSLATED as "virgin" into umpteen other languages by KNOWLEDGEABLE TRANSLATORS, which you are not!!!! You are talking about modern translations. You are talking about Jewish translators who are positively allergic to any meaning that might validate Christianity. The fact remains that the Jewish translators of the Septuagint used "parthenos" and the GREEK-SPEAKING WRITERS OF THE NEW TESTAMENT understood it to mean VIRGIN, and all the translations done from the Septuagint into other languages used that language's term for "virgin.l" Where "Almah" is used in teh Song of Songs is not for the Shulamite but for the Daughters of Jerusalem who are virgins.This message has been edited by Faith, 02-27-2006 07:56 PM

The topic is Judaism - True or False Religion.Discussing the specific word translated as virgin or young woman in Isaiah 7:14 is off topic for this thread.Do not continue that line of discussion. If you really must rehash it again there is a more appropriate thread still open. Prophecy of Messiah: Isaiah 7Please direct any comments concerning this Admin msg to the moderation link listed below.Thank you

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Usually, in a well-conducted debate, speakers are either emotionally uncommitted or can preserve sufficient detachment to maintain a coolly academic approach.-- Encylopedia Brittanica, on debate

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moved, per admin directionThis message has been edited by arachnophilia, 02-27-2006 08:16 PM

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My idea is this, a true religion is not based on a written document or artifact where we could trace who first supported or claimed or spread its doctrines. A true religion has no "specific terminology" to be called for but has a definite system of carrying its doctrines. It's just like a gadget with specific purpose and being used for the exact description of its purpose. A believer may be a Jew or a Christian, but if he is living not within the doctrine of his religion, then he must not supposed to be called a Jew or a Christian. We may used the Bible, the Torah, the Talmud, the Koran, and other religious books as references but the point is very simple, we can not be saved by the mere name of our religious affiliations. We can not claim that being a Christian or a Jew or a Muslim is a sure guarantee that savior is at hand. We will always be judge by our deeds as the best manifistations of our belief. We have this universal belief that what is good must be promoted and what is evil must be eradicated, thus it is a universal truism that a true religion is doing what is pleasing to our brothers and rejecting those that are destructive to them. That is why we have laws in order to govern man for the common good.The point also here is that the term "Bible" is a term designated to the general collections of the books which believed to be the testimonies of those who receieved their personal divinations from the Father.